Tesla Model 3 brief review

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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
And yet you're going to by flying steam engine airplanes well well well beyond the foreseeable future.
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http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/27/technology/electric-plane-easyjet-wright/index.html
Its happening. Probably 20 - 30 years away really though.


That's REALLY short on details. How do you recreate the thrust from a jet engine using an electric motor and a battery? Sure, you can spin a prop, but that doesn't replicate the performance of jet engine, which sort of makes the name "EasyJet" a bit of a misnomer.....
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That's REALLY short on details. How do you recreate the thrust from a jet engine using an electric motor and a battery? Sure, you can spin a prop, but that doesn't replicate the performance of jet engine, which sort of makes the name "EasyJet" a bit of a misnomer.....
We're off topic. I'll say look into the Hybrid airplanes (google) as well as the futuristic full-electric ones. Hybrids save battery mass, which makes it more viable for aircraft.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That's REALLY short on details. How do you recreate the thrust from a jet engine using an electric motor and a battery? Sure, you can spin a prop, but that doesn't replicate the performance of jet engine, which sort of makes the name "EasyJet" a bit of a misnomer.....
We're off topic.


That's BITOG.

Originally Posted By: oil_film_moviesI'll say look into the Hybrid airplanes (google) as well as the futuristic full-electric ones. Hybrids save battery mass, which makes it more viable for aircraft.
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OK, so the Zunum, which is the project being developed with Boeing states:

Zunum says the plane would cruise at about 340 miles an hour and at altitudes of about 25,000 feet (7,600 meters) - slower and lower than conventional jets. The motor, which Zunum is designing, will drive a fan similar to the bypass fan on a jet engine, but without a jet’s combustion. Current battery technology can only power the plane for about 100 miles so a gas-powered engine would be used to generate electricity to power the motors for additional range.


Which answers my question: You don't. They are using a fan.

This is like a battery powered Cesna, ergo, as I stated "sure, you can spin a prop". But there is so far, no breakthrough to replace the thrust of a jet engine.

The Boeing 777-300ER is powered by two massive GE turbofans that produce 115,300lb of thrust and can get its portly 775,000lb takeoff weight up to almost 600Mph.

There is a place for this type of plane in the market, certainly, but it isn't replacing a jet.

Reminds me a bit of the King Air, which is a great private plane, and we were looking at one prior to buying our jet. We ultimately settled on the jet because it was faster and could fly significantly higher.

So far, nothing has implied that there is anything in the works that will usurp the jet in service.
 
Sorry, but I forgot everything else that was written after reading that you bought yourself a private jet.
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Ok, I'm back now.

The claim of making a BE plane is nice, but where's the beef?

I'm skeptical mostly because that article makes statements that imply the usual electric fallacies:

1. That building a redonkulous charging network and using electricity is free or low cost.

2. That electric is better for the environment.

Anyhow, the point of my statement was that when BEV tech gets to the point that a credit card sized battery will generate enough power to run a major city, an electric plane is still going to get its wings blown off by a jet aircraft.

Any of the guys intimately informed on the topic of aviation will tell you that way up there, ducted fan just doesn't cut it. At a certain height, you're either burning something for thrust, or you're coming back down in a jiffy.

Physical traction of the air only gets you so far once the air starts spreading real thin. And -60°F will do wonders for battery efficiency.

Speaking of -60°F; that's going to be the temperature of Lucifer's infinity pool the day an electric plane is taking hundreds of passengers on an affordable intercontinental flight.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
We're off topic. I'll say look into the Hybrid airplanes (google) as well as the futuristic full-electric ones. Hybrids save battery mass, which makes it more viable for aircraft.


Electric airplanes are bonkers...at least all the mass of an EV's batteries are supported by the wheels and the ground, not relying on the wings (and therefore thrust) to hold them off the ground.

I Googled the hybrid ones, and this is priceless...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42152484

Quote:
There are several good reasons why Airbus wants to develop electrified planes.

Jet fuel makes up a significant proportion of a typical airline's running costs - over the past few years it has varied from 17-36%, depending on the price of oil. Use less fuel and costs should come down.

Then there's noise. Modern jets aren't nearly as noisy as their predecessors from a couple of decades ago, but they still make quite a racket on landing or takeoff. If your house is close to the airport that's bad news.

Electric motors are a lot quieter, so they could allow more night flights, especially in airports close to city centres.

And of course, there's the question of emissions. Electrified aircraft, like hybrid cars, should be cleaner than conventional models.

With some forecasts suggesting the number of large aircraft will double over the next 20 years, they could become a powerful tool for cutting emissions of NOx and CO2.

So the potential benefits are clear - but first the technology needs to be proven.


I've been accused of not imagining enough things that will come to pass under Musk.

I imagine an airliner with two unicorns mounted to each wing (*), providing not only silent and emissions free flying to the public, but they'll be able to trade their sweat in at the end of the flight for the duty free liquor of their choice at the end of the flight.

(*) Unicorns, being about the same size as horses when they tuck their wings in are ideal. Long distance flights, the cargo holds would be converted to stables to house, feed and rest the back-up engines unicorns, which could be changed over mid flight.

Only problem that I can see is that horse shoe nails aren't rated for the sorts of loads that apply between a unicorn's hoof and the wings of an airbus...but for long distance flights you would need to have a quick connect coupling for seamless unicorn changeover, so the failings of today's horseshoe nails aren't the problem that the naysayers would have people believe.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Only problem that I can see is that horse shoe nails aren't rated for the sorts of loads that apply between a unicorn's hoof and the wings of an airbus...but for long distance flights you would need to have a quick connect coupling for seamless unicorn changeover, so the failings of today's horseshoe nails aren't the problem that the naysayers would have people believe.

That's simply an engineering problem.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Sorry, but I forgot everything else that was written after reading that you bought yourself a private jet.
shocked.gif




When I say "we", I mean our company, not me personally, LOL!
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
...
I imagine an airliner with two unicorns mounted to each wing (*), providing not only silent and emissions free flying to the public, but they'll be able to trade their sweat in at the end of the flight for the duty free liquor of their choice at the end of the flight.

(*) Unicorns, being about the same size as horses when they tuck their wings in are ideal. Long distance flights, the cargo holds would be converted to stables to house, feed and rest the back-up engines unicorns, which could be changed over mid flight.

Only problem that I can see is that horse shoe nails aren't rated for the sorts of loads that apply between a unicorn's hoof and the wings of an airbus...but for long distance flights you would need to have a quick connect coupling for seamless unicorn changeover, so the failings of today's horseshoe nails aren't the problem that the naysayers would have people believe.


Hey , mate,

I need the unicorns Saturday when I take my girls to the movie, not chasing high altitude Canada geese...

If I buy 4 vortex fans from HF, a welding transformer, and a lot of 9 volts, can i airborne my commute?
I think I'm going to name her, "TheFlyingYota"

P.S. are the electric planes ramblings a result of the current political push for all electrical (without infrastructure development of course)?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Sorry, but I forgot everything else that was written after reading that you bought yourself a private jet.
shocked.gif




When I say "we", I mean our company, not me personally, LOL!


Ok, I can stop worshipping you now.
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A point about electric aircraft. Jet aircraft use heat to create the high discharge velocity necessary for high altitude and high speed cruise.

The speed of sound is lower at cold high altitudes. So a fan+duct or a prop have strict limitations of discharge velocity, related to the low speed of sound at low temperatures. The magic ingredient is heat. Lots of it. The hotter the air in the duct or nozzle, the higher the discharge velocity can be, and the faster we can push an airplane.

So, while it's easy to use a battery/motor combination to drive a Tesla down the road at comparatively low speeds and it's equally easy to drive a prop with a battery/motor and achieve prop aircraft type speeds. Prop efficiency drops off significantly over 300 knots, and electric motors don't have the heat of combustion necessary to achieve jet speeds.

Our company's Gulfstream Jets use this fact effectively, by mixing fan duct airflow with engine exhaust, (heating the fan duct air) allowing the engine to efficiently push the airframe to transonic cruise speeds as high as M0.93.

Note: there are no prop aircraft of any sort, capable of true transonic cruise flight. ( for modern aircraft that is around M0.82-M0.99 )
 
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Ok, I can stop worshipping you now.
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He owns the company.
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I wish! Just lowly management/IT
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The owner is a pretty awesome guy though. He loves aircraft and flies himself quite often, he has a Cirrus SR22 GTS that he uses for shorter casual trips.
 
Originally Posted By: pandus13

you forget that little thingy called "chinese know-how" (I mean, take technology from others...)... chinese firms have been trying to enter the North American market for some time...

They already have - BYD is selling and assembling electric buses in the US. While they might be ugly, it's given Gillig and New Flyer a wake-up call. Pretty soon, we might see BYD cars on the roads.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
But I do wonder why no one has made a Model S competitor yet? I assume the motor and speed controller are pretty simple to design and manufacture, so is it the batteries that are holding them up? They don't want to buy Tesla's but can't develop or buy other batteries as good?

Previously I thought it might be the Porsche Panamera which could shortly challenge Tesla's Model S market.
Looks more like Jaguar will beat everybody to it: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/111...el-s-competitor
 
I suspect once rumors about about ownership of Jaguar start circulating around, enthusiasm will go down too. Today that fact is NOT known to most but if Jaguar were to become threat to US car industry, you can bet your paycheck that "owned by Dot Indian" would be strong undercurrent. I see no reason why Jaguar would be given a pass as compared to say BYD.

By the way, I am "Dot Indian" myself before anybody accuses me of racism.
 
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Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: pandus13

you forget that little thingy called "chinese know-how" (I mean, take technology from others...)... chinese firms have been trying to enter the North American market for some time...

They already have - BYD is selling and assembling electric buses in the US. While they might be ugly, it's given Gillig and New Flyer a wake-up call. Pretty soon, we might see BYD cars on the roads.

BYD had some car trials in Chicago/Donwtown.
I saw one, could not make out/recognize the car signs.....
 
Originally Posted By: pandus13
Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: pandus13

you forget that little thingy called "chinese know-how" (I mean, take technology from others...)... chinese firms have been trying to enter the North American market for some time...

They already have - BYD is selling and assembling electric buses in the US. While they might be ugly, it's given Gillig and New Flyer a wake-up call. Pretty soon, we might see BYD cars on the roads.

BYD had some car trials in Chicago/Donwtown.
I saw one, could not make out/recognize the car signs.....

I wouldn't be surprised if Google/Waymo has one roaming Mountain View/Sunnyvale with self-driving hardware.

Stanford has a few BYD electric buses in operation, they were a staunch Gillig client, seeing how the old plant was only a stone's throw from Palo Alto in Hayward.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I suspect once rumors about about ownership of Jaguar start circulating around, enthusiasm will go down too. Today that fact is NOT known to most but if Jaguar were to become threat to US car industry, you can bet your paycheck that "owned by Dot Indian" would be strong undercurrent. I see no reason why Jaguar would be given a pass as compared to say BYD.


Most rational people don't care about that kind of stuff -- they just want a good product at a fair price.

Those who are young, or with short memories, might not remember that all "furrin'" cars were once considered pieces of junk.

To be fair, a lot of them were. But, eventually, they all got better, and the the market spoke. The Europeans usurped the high end, and the Japanese ate everyone else's lunch, before also taking a bite out of the high end. The Koreans were considered cheap tin cans only roughly 30 years ago, and are now as competitive as anything else, if not quite at the top (yet--like they've achieved in consumer electronics). Nothing will prevent the Chinese from eventually doing the same. Ultimately, people vote with the wallets, which will easily overrule any other factor.

Tesla is as American as any car company can be, and Musk a quintessential success story, but that hasn't prevented plenty of irrational hate directed its way.
 
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