Terrible experience at Lexus service, here's my rant

[Oildudeny]

Well I would have personally left a warranty covered vehicle alone.

If the manufacturer thought the a.c. lines to be insulated they would have done so same goes with needing hardware store hose clamps.

No offense but somethings are better left alone.

 

[Denkun]

Yea I understand, I just put everything back to avoid any hassle while under warranty.
Just weird that I also have a heavily modded Toyota and never once received negative comments from my Toyota dealer and even had warranty work done with no hassles

 

[CharlieBauer]

Bit surprised that you paid them to carry out work seeing they accused you of swapping the motor based on nothing but specious speculation.

At that point you either walk or ask for the foreman. You went in for a genuine concern - dirty coolant. You left not having found out why it happened and having paid them during the warranty period.

If you want to be sure everything is ok, send off for a coolant analysis. Depending on the results, take it to another dealer and engage Lexus corporate accordingly.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: Oildudeny
Well I would have personally left a warranty covered vehicle alone.

If the manufacturer thought the a.c. lines to be insulated they would have done so same goes with needing hardware store hose clamps.

No offense but somethings are better left alone.

Because manufacturers never make decisions based on cost. All decisions are performance and reliability based, correct?

Nothing wrong with insulating an AC line. The PCV lines I would have left however. The system is under vacuum and essentially clamps itself.

 

[Oildudeny]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: Oildudeny
Well I would have personally left a warranty covered vehicle alone.

If the manufacturer thought the a.c. lines to be insulated they would have done so same goes with needing hardware store hose clamps.

No offense but somethings are better left alone.

Because manufacturers never make decisions based on cost. All decisions are performance and reliability based, correct?

Nothing wrong with insulating an AC line. The PCV lines I would have left however. The system is under vacuum and essentially clamps itself.


if the system is designed without the insulation, it may actually be detrimental to some of the working parts for it to be colder (may cause freezing of moving parts/evaporator). Engineers have taken all of this into account when designing the AC unit in the first place.
Remember in order for condensation to form on this pipe it only has to meet two conditions: 1) pipe has to be cooler than the dew point; 2) there has to be humidity in the air. These conditions are very easily met in most situations.
Vehicle AC units are work pretty darn well (even with R134a in them) considering what they have to do and the amount and quickness of cooling they have to do. Why mess with success. If you do, you could be introducing dynamics into the system they weren't designed for and you won't being doing much to improve the efficiency (if you improve it at all).

 

[nap]

There are quite a lot of things that the manufacturer won’t care to do at factory. Many are dealer installed like additional body parts (trim), additional rustproofing, soundproofing, protective films, window tint etc. Many can be done at independent shops. None is supposed to void your warranty.

OTOH I wouldn’t install clamps on a rubber hose that wasn’t designed to have them. It’s about the type of rubber and hose structure (i.e. textile material reinforcement etc). On the wrong type of hose they will just help damaging it and creating cuts / punctures / wear / degradation.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Oildudeny
.....if the system is designed without the insulation, it may actually be detrimental to some of the working parts for it to be colder (may cause freezing of moving parts/evaporator). Engineers have taken all of this into account when designing the AC unit in the first place.

Remember in order for condensation to form on this pipe it only has to meet two conditions: 1) pipe has to be cooler than the dew point; 2) there has to be humidity in the air. These conditions are very easily met in most situations. Vehicle AC units are work pretty darn well (even with R134a in them) considering what they have to do and the amount and quickness of cooling they have to do. Why mess with success. If you do, you could be introducing dynamics into the system they weren't designed for and you won't being doing much to improve the efficiency (if you improve it at all).


Post of the thread. Lot's of common sense here. I don't understand why everyone who buys a car thinks they know more than the people who designed it, or the factory that built it. Think about it. If all of this aftermarket junk actually worked, and delivered what it promised, the factories would be contracting with them for OEM use. They don't.

If all it took was a K&N air filter to produce 11 extra horsepower and 3 more MPG, every car sold in this country would have one. Same with "Bosch Platinum +4 Spark Plugs", along with all of this other gimmick stuff they sell, that's based around all of these inflated claims of better performance.

Automotive and engine designers try every trick in the book to increase performance and mileage. They have no choice. It's a never ending battle with both the consumers of their products and the government. Same with improving A/C performance, along with everything else under the hood. They don't do it by buying stuff off J-Hooks at Auto Zone. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars in research, development, and testing. Thinking you can improve your car with this add on junk, is like believing you can treat your colon cancer with drugs from the local drug pusher who sells on the street corner. Better than by checking yourself into the Mayo Clinic.

 

[RooflessVW]

Bosch +4 plugs ARE installed on plenty of cars from the factory, as are 2 and 3 prong plugs.

OEMs have more to consider than outright performance which is why aftermarket parts DO work, and is precisely why you can turn a Corolla into a racecar.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Bosch +4 plugs ARE installed on plenty of cars from the factory, as are 2 and 3 prong plugs.

OEMs have more to consider than outright performance which is why aftermarket parts DO work, and is precisely why you can turn a Corolla into a racecar.


Right. Cost is a big consideration for OEMs.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
The techs were right on the money to be suspicious. Worm style hose clamps and meddling with AC lines are a tell tell sign of somebody messing with the engine. I bet they already saw fee of these example with the car possibly having an overheating issue and the owner wants to use the flush as an excuse for them to fix the overheating problem.



Yeah, I was kinda thinking the same thing.

One, most coolants don't need to be drained/flushed for 100K miles now, and even so, it would not be a warranty item. That just sounds sketch to me.

If I was the manager, I would do the exact same thing. I would tell the customer "nope" not touching it. I would NOT dig deep in to the "modification" to figure what it is... thinking this person want to hang the cost of their mistakes on the dealership (by then claiming the dealer wronged them after the task).

 

[Oildudeny]

Cost or not if it works in R&D and off the assembly line dont fix what's not broken. If something becomes a problem and a tsb is issued then it should be corrected.

 

[billt460]

If we're going to dive into cost, look at what the manufacturers spend to deliver an honest extra 1 or 2 MPG. It amounts to hundreds of millions in research, development, and testing. If all they had to do was change the type of air filter or spark plug to get the same thing, they would do it in a heartbeat. And no one is talking about, "building race cars" here.

 

[nap]

With CAFE it would cost them even more if they weren’t doing it.

 

[Denkun]

Alright guys let me clarify I am fully aware regular strap clamps will eat into hoses especially silicone.so all except one are high quality smoth i.d and will not damage hoses. I did not put hardware store clamps on this car. I had installed them since the oem clamps on the pcv hoses were single wire spring clamps, they looked cheap and like they didn't have enough clamping force. the spring clamps I just installed should hopefully look stock and avoid hassles.

Now as far as the a/c insulation: I believe if an a/c has to operate in ambient temps or slightly above then insulation of lines is not necessary. However, if you have a/c lines in an extremely hot engine bay sometimes over 200 degrees and especially over very hot components like exhaust manifolds and coolant outlets it could be possible to suffer some loss of efficiency. There's already some small spots with factory insulation so I just thought of continuing. I will admit that my choice of insulation material was too thick and looked janky

 

[KrisZ]

I personally dont care what people do to their vehicles and I am not going to act high and mighty bringing in the all knowing creatures called the engineers to the discussuion.

However, when you do something that doesn't look OEM and jumps out at the techs, dont expect them to guess what you were trying to accomplish. They deal with a lot of shady customers that try to stiff the dealership as well. That's all.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: billt460
If we're going to dive into cost, look at what the manufacturers spend to deliver an honest extra 1 or 2 MPG. It amounts to hundreds of millions in research, development, and testing. If all they had to do was change the type of air filter or spark plug to get the same thing, they would do it in a heartbeat. And no one is talking about, "building race cars" here.

You're right. You could also turn a Corolla into a luxury car to rival the world's best with enough money... But that's not what the engineers were asked to build.

The point is, cars are now and have always been bundles of compromise. Sacrificing 1 mpg here for some NVH there, some performance here for some cost there...

Maybe OEMs don't use a serviceable air filter because of the servicing requirement - how long it takes to wash an air filter vs simply replace. Maybe +4 plugs aren't used because of the cylinder head design, maybe they're not used for commonality amongst models... There's more to it than you think. (or pretend to think)

Every car I've ever owned has had some very simple (or not so simple) ways to improve upon the OEM's design. The Phaeton is a good example. The almighty engineers made the decision to raise the car 1/2" and set the pressures at 42/48 to meet US curb heights and DOT pressure standards. As a consequence, it rides miserably.Guess what happens when you drop the height and pressures to ROW settings?

My old Rabbit's headlights - 4 halogen bulbs running through the switch, not a relay in sight. Clearly a cost-based decision.

The 911's engine mounts. Hydraulic and they fail consistently. Many cars share this design. In this case they sacrificed durability for NVH.

So do I believe insulating AC lines could be of use? Sure. Because I know that if the system performs "good enough" without insulation and dropping it would save $5 per car, it would absolutely be dropped.

 

[billt460]

So how much colder did the A/C blow after you wrapped the lines?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Aren't warranty repairs covered by the manufacturer?
If so, it would seem the dealer would be drooling over dirty antifreeze.

And just how did that stuff get dirty in a closed system?
Just askin...

 

[Denkun]

Nothing crazy, it's just a little bit colder. Maybe a few degrees however, it got colder faster stayed cold and less engagement of the compressor. I could set it at 70 and be comfortable. I'd assume if you lived somewhere like Phoenix it would be worthwhile to try it atleast

 

[Denkun]

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Aren't warranty repairs covered by the manufacturer?
If so, it would seem the dealer would be drooling over dirty antifreeze.

And just how did that stuff get dirty in a closed system?
Just askin...


I have no idea, but I saw some *small* flakes of what look like sediment floating in the overflow tank which is why I took it to the dealer to be drained and refilled(on my dime)if it looked perfect I wouldn't have bothered till 5 or 6 years or just right before the warranty expired so they could get a chance to inspect.
The tech told me there were no leaks and the water pump was fine, no oil leaks nothing. So I'm stumped as to why I saw that little bit of sediment from the factory fill. I was thinking maybe it was casting debris from the block? How long should I let the coolant circulate in there before sending it in for analysis ?

Can you guys tell me if seeing sediment is something to worry about ?