TBN boosters?

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Originally Posted By: Phishin
Are you guys all crazy? What the heck does additives have to do with TBN? Honestly?

I don't think there is any relationship.

TBN is the ability of the oil to neutralize the acidic byproducts of combustion. It has nothing to do with zinc, calcium, magnesium, boron, moly, or sodium....because these cations cannot neutralize acids....they don't have the ability to accept a proton.

I'm going out on a limb here, and this is just a guess, but I think it's the basic nature of the base oil that could contain it's abiilty to neutralize an acid and of course, there might be a TBN specific enhancing additive added to oil.....but FOR SURE, anti-wear, detergency, and friction modifiers do not contribute to the TBN.



You couldn't be more wrong if you tried to be. It is the Calcium and Magnesium content of an oil that determines the TBN. Detergency is most definitely the result of additive chemistry and not base stock.
 
Originally Posted By: Darkfire
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Does anybody out there know of additives that boost the TBN of an oil in order to extend OCI's? I've done some searches here but haven't found any references.

BG MOA (TBN 18.6)
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2385363

I've never used the stuff, but I saw it added on an old service invoice from a Toyota dealer when they did an oil change years ago.


That's interesting; I've never heard of it. Also mentioned in the thread is Redline Break-in oil additive that has 20,000ppm of Calcium, so it seems that it would boost TBN. But since I'm already running Redline oil and have plenty of AW additive, I don't want to overdo things there.
 
As usual Skyship you will not answer the question. I am sure there are several people here who would like to know why you go to every post where there is a discussion about an oil supplement or engine cleaner and you say that people should not use oil supplements or engine cleaners. Or at least I think you say no to engine cleaners although about half the time you seem to accept idle only engine flushes.

People here are going to use whatever oil supplement they decide to use-Auto-RX, MMO, Kreen, Neutra, whatever. Whatever you say will not change their minds. You have made a noble effort to educate everybody as to the dangers to oil supplements and engine cleaners. Looks like it is not working.

It kind of makes me think about some Windows websites where Linux and Mac users would go to try to convince the Windows users to use Linux or Macs.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Phishin said:
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried to be. It is the Calcium and Magnesium content of an oil that determines the TBN. Detergency is most definitely the result of additive chemistry and not base stock.


Huh? I agree that cations like magnesium, calcium, and sodium indicate levels of detergency.....and detergency is most definately the result of additive packages.

But you are confused if you think TBN and detergency are related. Detergents have nothing to do with TBN. How can they? They are very different properties whose characteristics are expressed using two completely different systems.

Many guys on here think that if they still have a TBN greater than 1, their oil is still cleaning. WRONG!! You can have a TBN of 0.0 and still have 5000ppm calcium present. The reason you don't want your TBN low is.....as acids are created due to conbustion events, you want the oil to absorb the acid and neutralize it quickly.

Otherwise, the acid will attack the iron, copper, and aluminum found in your engine. That is not good. This will cause excessive wear....LOL!! The acids will begin to eat and slowly dissolve your engine. The acids will also begin to attach the organic polymers that make up your oil, turning it into something that's not very motor oil like.

A lot of people think TBN means their oil is still "active"....cleaning and having "good additives" left. NOPE. It has nothing to do with it. A TBN >1 means that the "acid sponge" of the oil isn't saturated yet.

Hopefully this makes sense.
Click to expand...
 
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Originally Posted By: skyship
4000 ppm of Zinc would be great for cold starts, but you would need a simple straight exhaust system because it would foul up the CAT real fast.
No 4000 ppm is the additive, so if you put one pint in 5 quarts you raise the zinc by 400 ppm. Not going to kill a cat (by the phosphorus that is with the zinc that is) unless it's an oil burner.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Does anybody out there know of additives that boost the TBN of an oil in order to extend OCI's? I've done some searches here but haven't found any references.


This product claims to extend OCI's by "leveling" the TBN. Don't shoot the messenger:

LC20 by LCD company;... http://www.lcdinc.com/products_lube_control.php

It never got the exposure that LC PLUS got during the Terry Dyson era. If my memory serves, it's claim to fame was for anti oxidation?
 
A_Harman....it appears we are both right.

The metallic salts of alkyl phenol sulfides are commonly referred to as “Phenates”. The metallic salts of alkaryl sulfonic acids are commonly referred to as "Sulfonates". They are both specifically designed to be soluble in oil, and insoluble in water. The detergents each serve a purpose such as dissolving otherwise insoluble metallic salts, like calcium or magnesium carbonate in lubricating oil.

So......the detergents (Phenates & Sulfonates salts......probably with Mg or Ca cations) are oil soluble. These are the actual detergents that do the cleaning. But Ca or Mg carbonate is dissolved in these detergents. Carbonates will dissolves in detergent, but not oil.....but once dissolved, the detergent/carbonate solution will dissolve in oil.

Carbonates are basic....they neutralize acids. This is where the TBN comes from. So, the detergent package has the TBN built into it by dissolving the carbonates in the detergents.

I learned something today.
 
TBN has nothing to do with base stocks it is ALL additve driven.

TBN comes from detergents, Anti oxidants, dispersants and CA (or other metals) sulfonates.

If you want higher TBN in your oil buy a additve that claims to increase it or go to a older style Diesl engine oil (HDEO)
this will be a CI-4 oil. The newer CJ oils are in the 7-8 range where the older CI-4 are 10-12 range.
 
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KeMBro2012 Skyship's posts are pretty funny in a way. For a while I thought about putting him on Ignore but his posts are so entertaining I will not do that.

I am not sure what to make of Skyship. Pretty much his views on oil supplements and engine cleaners could be put into one small post-don't use oil supplements and most engine cleaners. Skyship seems to slightly open the door for idle only engine flushes.

But he also has gone some strange directions such as talking about gold dust as an additive in motor oil. And he makes some wild claims.

Maybe this is all entertainment for Skyship. I wonder if he may be more impressed by the members of bitgo than he may have been when he first came here.

But his inability to back up the stuff he says with good documentation and his wild claims do little for his credibility as far as I am concerned.
 
Big Moa is an additive with lots of detergents so would raise the TBN. Don't use Redline oils if you want to extend an OCI, they are designed for more sporty use with high levels of anti wear additives, but not enough detergents. Oils with high levels of Zinc, Moly and Boron produce good wear figures but their TBN drops fairly quickly so they are not good for long OCI's. Mobil 1, Castrol Edge, Shell Helix or any of the HM oils contain more Calcium and Magnesium so will maintain their TBN longer.
One disadvantage of suddenly adding a large amount of detergent additive is that it will chew up the anti wear layers of Zinc and Moly in the same way as new oil does for a short time, so it could easily increase the wear metal figures.
There are only two ways of safely extending the TBN figures, firstly to use a better oil that has more detergents or to drain some used oil off and use my highly recommended top up oil.
 
Originally Posted By: bruce381
TBN has nothing to do with base stocks it is ALL additve driven.

TBN comes from detergents, Anti oxidants, dispersants and CA (or other metals) sulfonates.


Bruce,

From my reading, it appears that the TBN is almost solely attributed to the Calcium Carbonate that is dissolved into the Sulfonate (detergents) before this Sulfonate/Carbonate solution is dissolved into the base stock oil.

So, in theory, you could have a base stock of oil with a whopping amount of Sulfonate (detergent) and not add any Calcium Carbonate....and you'd have an oil with a VERY HIGH detergency, yet a VERY LOW TBN oil.

But I imagine that there is a "standard" that tribologists mix in a certain range of calcium carbonate into a given amount of Sulfonate and therefore, there is a loose link between detergency and TBN....because given a certain level of detergency in the oil, there is specific range of calcium carbonate along for the ride.

But I'm just showing you in theory, that you could make an oil with a super high level of sulfonates and zero carbonates, and you'd have a super cleaning oil with super high detergency, yet no TBN. So, in actuality, TBN and detergency aren't directly linked (detergents don't create TBN)...but since the carbonates are dissolved into the sulfonates before they go into the base stock oil, they are kinda linked. But not directly.
 
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Quote:
The TBN of the detergent reflects its ability to neutralize acids. For basic sulfonate and phosphonate detergents, only the overbased portion of the detergent, that is, the carbonate and the hydroxide possesses this capability. The neutral metal sulfonates and phosphonates, that is, soaps, lack this ability. However, for basic carboxylates, salicylates, and phenates, soaps also possess the acid-neutralizing ability. This is because, unlike sulfonates and phosphonates that are strong acid–strong base salts, metal carboxylates, metal salicylates, and metal phenates are strong base–weak acid salts. This makes them Lewis bases, hence the acid-neutralizing
ability.


From, Lubricant Additives, Chapter 4, "Detergents."

Bruce is correct, tbn can come from some other additives as well that have a "basing" capability.
 
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Originally Posted By: panthermike
Lubegard's Biotech claims to extend oil life. A VOA shows over 3000ppm Calcium among other adds.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2802858&page=1


Yes, but I wish that they made something with very high calcium, mag, anti-oxidants, dispersants, and other TBN boosting carboxylates/salicylates without all of the AW/FM additives in their BioTech product.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Bruce is correct, tbn can come from some other additives as well that have a "basing" capability.


I agree MolaKule. Any metal salt is going to possess a buffering effect....but the overwhelming majority of an oil's ability to neutralize acid can be attributed to the carbonates dissolved into the detergents. That is why these carbonates are added to oil!! Sure, certain basic components of additives are going to neutralize acids, but thats nothing compared to the job that the carbonates do.

In fact, I'd wager that these additives amount to less than 5% of the total acid neutralizing ability....and that the vast majority of TBN is derived from the proton sponge, known as carbonate.
Click to expand...
 
Quote:
In fact, I'd wager that these additives amount to less than 5% of the total acid neutralizing ability....and that the vast majority of TBN is derived from the proton sponge, known as carbonate.


Well, the carbonate or the metal hydroxide. The proporton of detergent/dispersant in the additive package alone is 40 to 52% so I would have to agree that around 5% of the tbn is due to the contribution of other additives.
 
Quote:
Yes, but I wish that they made something with very high calcium, mag, anti-oxidants, dispersants, and other TBN boosting carboxylates/salicylates without all of the AW/FM additives in their BioTech product.


But supposed you added something with high detergency and it competed with the AW/FM/metal deactivators/rust inhibitors/etc?

The final mix has to be a balanced chemistry that is compatible with the totality of the final blend.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I would have to agree that around 5% of the tbn is due to the contribution of other additives.


This is exactly what my point was....and MoleKule and Bruce both disagreed.

In summary, if you agree with what MoleKule and I are saying about where the TBN comes from (ie, 5% or less from "other" additives), then an oil with 10,000ppm Calcium, 500 ppm Moly, 500 ppm Boron, 1500 ppm Zinc/Phos, and any other additives are extremely high levels COULD HAVE a lower TBN (in both virgin oil and in retention) vs. an oil with just 500 ppm Calcium and ZERO Moly, Boron, and Zinc/Phos.

THEREFORE, TBN really doesn't have ANYTHING to do with AW/FM or detergency levels. It has something to do wtih the add packages, because metal carbonates and hydroxides are mixed into the additive packages....but the add package could have very little AW/FM agents or detergents and yet have a boat load of metal carbonates and hydroxides; thereby, having a VERY high TBN, yet virtually no detergents or AW/FM agents.

Okay, I'm done. Sorry it took me awhile to make my point.
 
Quote:
This is exactly what my point was....and MoleKule and Bruce both disagreed.



Beg our pardon?


The majority of the tbn boosting chemicals come from the detergent or in some in cases the detergent/dispersant component. (Some formulators use the ashless succinimide dispersants).

Realize there are synthesized calcium and sodium chemical compunds available for additive packages with starting TBN's ranging from 30 to 400 or better.
 
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