Tankless Hot Water Heater Question

[mrsilv04]

Quote:
Winter Water Changes

Because the system uses Lake Michigan as its source, you may see some seasonal changes in the water you receive. The most obvious is temperature.

During the summer, tap water will usually be 55º F or above; whereas during the winter, temperatures will range between 35º F and 45º F. The colder winter water temperature can sometimes produce a cloudy or milky appearance. In most instances, this cloudiness does not indicate any problem with the quality of the water, but is actually air or dissolved oxygen. Air stays suspended in cold water for longer periods of time. If cloudiness remains after the water stands for several minutes,contact the Gurnee Water Department at (847) 599-6800.


http://www.gurnee.il.us/water/clcjawa_water_facts.html

I'm really sorry, but I find it difficult to consider a 20+ degree temperature swing from as low as 35 degrees to 55 degrees (and above) to be considered as "negligible" or "very slight".

There are many other applications than just yours.

And that, is what I mean by a 90 degree rise in water temperature. If you start with 35 degree tap water, how many degrees must it be warmed for it to become 125 degree water for your dishwasher? 90.

 

[doitmyself]

mrsilv04,

Both LS2JSTS and I have already acknowledged that the differences must be due to variations in supply systems....wells vs. municipal.

Thanks for explaining it some more.

 

[mrsilv04]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
mrsilv04,

Both LS2JSTS and I have already acknowledged that the differences must be due to variations in supply systems....wells vs. municipal.

Thanks for explaining it some more.


Sorry about that. It is true that not everyone is on a well.

He also made misrepresentations of what I said.

Here's yet another one:

"Also, there is absolutely no reason to state that one would require a temp rise to 130 or 140 degrees."

I spoke of a 90 degree rise, not 130 or 140. Not sure where he came up with those numbers.

And by the way, LS2J, there's no need to bomb my personal messages file again with multiple messages like you did the last time... I really don't have the time.

 

[Gary Allan]

I think we could go to a vote system if they enabled polls on the forum.

Then we could have had a

poll.

Here's one example of the overall anxiety that's sorta surfacing more and more. I'm sure I'm not exempt from it on either end ..I just know it's uncomfortable.

Anyone else understand what I'm saying?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Then stop misquoting me and posting bad info about instant on tankless systems. I never said you mentioned a 130 degree rise, only that you mentioned having to raise the output temp to 130-140 degrees. Like I explained and you again apparently ignored is that I said you don't need an output of 130-140 degrees. That whole concept comes from the need to mix hot with cold in a tank system.

But please call me out again while you misquote and missrepresent what I said. Can you even understand the quote right above here, the one you quoted?....It says..."would require a temp rise TO 130-140....Do you understand now?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
The differences are very slight, you are correct. The northern climes have very little variance in incoming water temps from winter to summer. In my application the incoming temps are in the 45-50 degree range independent of season. The difference is there but it is negligable for this conversation.


The difference in the temperature of the water this area from season to season is far from 'very slight' or 'negligible', or which ever words you choose to use.

There may be huge differences between your water treatment and delivery systems and mine.

However, as always, you are entitled to your opinion...



....It's not an opinion at all, I have an incoming temp gauge on both my WHHWH system and my Heat Pump/Well system, it's fact that I monitor. The biggest variance I've seen to date was last winter and it was an 8 degree difference, and again, I said that for this conversation, that is negligable.

You seem to want to call me out and make an argument here, but please stop misquoting me when all I'm trying to do is educate those interested about a "better" way....and yes, that is my opinion. In the right situation it can be a perfect and economical solution.
If you'd bothered to read the PM(or my posts, instead of misquoting them) you would understand that situations are always different in these discussions. You go back to your cave, and I'll go back to mine!

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
That's the heating element kicking on and off. That's just a sign of how much power it is drawing.

To heat the water in such a short amount of time, these units need a lot of electricity and a lot of gas at once. That's why up north, the tankless units need oversized gas supply lines, and 2 (or 3) 220 circuits feeding them.

In Miami, it isn't that big of an issue, since your water is halfway warm to begin with, year around. Up here, our water gets COLD in the winter. It all depends on how many degrees that the temperature of the water must come up to get to 120 or 130 degrees. Up here, the water must come up around 90 degrees, depending on how hot a homeowner wants their water to be. For you, it is substantially less than that. That's how you get away with a unit that only requires a 110 volt supply.

If it doesn't change over time, then I wouldn't worry.

The heating element on a typical 1500 watt portable space heater can do the same thing to lights.


I'm sorry Silv, it looks like you said rise TO 120-130, I thought you said 130-140. I was ALWAYS refering to what you said the rise TO had to be. Not what the temp rise had to be. I didn't intentionally misrepresent you in any way. My point was, an rise TO 100-105 degrees is more logical and adequate as mixing the water with cold supply is not required.

Are we on the same page now?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I think we could go to a vote system if they enabled polls on the forum.

Then we could have had a

poll.

Here's one example of the overall anxiety that's sorta surfacing more and more. I'm sure I'm not exempt from it on either end ..I just know it's uncomfortable.

Anyone else understand what I'm saying?


Oh, I'd lose the vote, of that I'm sure.

But I dont appreciate being misquoted and then accused of doing the same by the person pointing the fingers. If defending myself against a rude and argumentative poster who continually either misconstrues or whole heartedly misquotes me is a problem....What would you have me do?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: doitmyself


He also made misrepresentations of what I said.

Here's yet another one:

"Also, there is absolutely no reason to state that one would require a temp rise to 130 or 140 degrees."

I spoke of a 90 degree rise, not 130 or 140. Not sure where he came up with those numbers.



Now please, at the risk of being labeled an argumentative jerk around here......That is my quote, that you quoted and took the time to repost. See where it says "rise TO 130 or 140...." I never in any way said you said a 130 or 140 degree rise....I said rise TO, that level, it's in your own quote but yet you call me out in open forum again.

I did mistake 120-130 for 130-140 like I said above. Thats because I was applying your stated 90 degree rise number to my input temps and thsat would give me 135-145 degrees at output. In any event, like I said and you didnt bother to quote, you dont need that high of output temps with tankless, it's wastefull.

Sorry to the OP or anybody around here that thinks I'm being a jerk, but that guy just completely screwed around the intent of my statement to suit his needs and then has the balls to call me out.....thats [censored]!

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
What would you have me do?


I'm merely watching the fusees get short. It's everywhere. It's not a judgment ..it's an observation.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Sorry to the OP or anybody around here that thinks I'm being a jerk, but that guy just completely screwed around the intent of my statement to suit his needs and then has the balls to call me out.....thats [censored]!


You're getting that bent out of shape over a water heater discussion? Pal, you need some serious help.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS


Sorry to the OP or anybody around here that thinks I'm being a jerk, but that guy just completely screwed around the intent of my statement to suit his needs and then has the balls to call me out.....thats [censored]!


You're getting that bent out of shape over a water heater discussion? Pal, you need some serious help.


No, I actually am "bent" because some liar misconstrued my point to suit his own needs while calling me a liar. An honest man would understand that.

 

[Slick17601]

Originally Posted By: JTK
Geez! I didn't think it would be possible to heat enough water w/ a ~1500W 120VAC circuit! I've heard good and bad things about the tankless wonders. If they're mounted locally they're great. Remotely w/ long pipe runs, you hear of complaints.

Joel


Joel is right, there's no way a tankless runs on 110V. Most experts do not recommend electric tankless at all. I looked at installing a gas tankless but the the payback was way too long.

 

[doitmyself]

Is it still safe to post stuff here that you only read about on the internet...ie, no real experience?

Even the professional forums are arguing about the merits of tankless heaters, so I have come to the conclusion that they need to be considered on a case by case basis to determine feasibility.

Now my internet learned tip: These units are very sensitive to losing efficiency with only minor water scale build up on the heat exchanger. So, clean them on a regular basis, depending on the hardness of your water.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Yikes, stupid me.....posting with my blinders on once again. I have been on a well system all my life and forgot about "city water" or any other type of system. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.


See what you started!! It's all your fault!!

It's obvious that "it's in the water" ..as they attempt to contaminate our bodily fluids ...our essence.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Is it still safe to post stuff here that you only read about on the internet...ie, no real experience?

Even the professional forums are arguing about the merits of tankless heaters, so I have come to the conclusion that they need to be considered on a case by case basis to determine feasibility.

Now my internet learned tip: These units are very sensitive to losing efficiency with only minor water scale build up on the heat exchanger. So, clean them on a regular basis, depending on the hardness of your water.


I was soundly based on another forum for my anti tankless posts. A couple of plumbers said only those in the business should be giving opinions on them. Suggesting people try to figure out what they are spending now before buying one upset them.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: Slick17601
Originally Posted By: JTK
Geez! I didn't think it would be possible to heat enough water w/ a ~1500W 120VAC circuit! I've heard good and bad things about the tankless wonders. If they're mounted locally they're great. Remotely w/ long pipe runs, you hear of complaints.

Joel


Joel is right, there's no way a tankless runs on 110V. Most experts do not recommend electric tankless at all. I looked at installing a gas tankless but the the payback was way too long.


Sorry its on a 120 circuit...It was really meant to be on a 220.

In condos the tankless is best...Though the years there have been hundreds and thousands of dollars damage done to condos with tanks that have leaked...One not long ago actually leaked from the 4TH floor all the way down to the first as everybody in the line happen to be away at that time...The one who has the leaky tank tank is reasonable for all the damage...If its going to leak its going to be on a weekend or when nobody is there to catch it in time before damage happens.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04

Sorry to the OP or anybody around here that thinks I'm being a jerk, but that guy just completely screwed around the intent of my statement to suit his needs and then has the balls to call me out.....thats [censored]!


No I DO NOT think you are a jerk.

BTW there was no inspection done after all those Waterless Heaters were installed...Seems strange as whenever there is any work done around here there usually an inspection...Even when I had a new central a/c unit put about 5 years ago it was inspected.

Thanks all for the helpful comments!

 

[tom slick]

Slightly OT: Tanked units on multi-story buildings are supposed to be installed in a pan with a drain so when they do fail the water drains into the plumbing. Is this an old condo?

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Slightly OT: Tanked units on multi-story buildings are supposed to be installed in a pan with a drain so when they do fail the water drains into the plumbing. Is this an old condo?


The condo building was built in 1978...Never heard of the pan with a drain before...That would have saved a ton of money in damage if they had them!!

I heard later on the builder went for every short cut.