T6 rorella 5w40 in my 01 7.3 power stroke
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I trust Shell and Mobil than anyone else on this board. If you have data to show otherwise then let see it. They have R&D departments and a racing history to backup their claims. The FTC is not disputing their claims and their names are in the winner circle. Go to a professional race and talk to their reps, you will be surprised by what they and their racers can tell you.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I run a 6.0 PSD EVERY DAY, and if it had even 10W30 dino oil it would buck and smoke huge amounts of fuel when left out overnight, temps below freezing, with no block heater or oil pan heater. Does much better on 5W40 (Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme)-but your 7.3 may not have as troublesome a HEUI system as the 6.0 does. BTW, it works HARD every day of it's life, never below 9000 lbs., and at 256K it is on it's ORIGINAL variable-vane turbo!
You are a lucky man let me say haha
I run a 6.0 PSD EVERY DAY, and if it had even 10W30 dino oil it would buck and smoke huge amounts of fuel when left out overnight, temps below freezing, with no block heater or oil pan heater. Does much better on 5W40 (Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme)-but your 7.3 may not have as troublesome a HEUI system as the 6.0 does. BTW, it works HARD every day of it's life, never below 9000 lbs., and at 256K it is on it's ORIGINAL variable-vane turbo!
You are a lucky man let me say haha
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I trust Shell and Mobil than anyone else on this board. If you have data to show otherwise then let see it. They have R&D departments and a racing history to backup their claims. The FTC is not disputing their claims and their names are in the winner circle. Go to a professional race and talk to their reps, you will be surprised by what they and their racers can tell you.
We are not talking about races and competitions here.
I specifically limit my comments to on road applications; not racing, sled pulls, drag racing, etc.
He wanted to know if the protection is "better" with syn in 7k miles. NO!
Now, if he was going to greatly extned the OCI, then I'd be in complete agreement. But he's not. He lives in IN, and he's going to run "normal" OCIs.
As for facts, I see you convieniently ignored all the UOA evidence I posted. And then you hang your hat on sales rhetoric and hype. As for the "similar" comparisons, I don't understand how you don't understand. Duramax trucks; similar OCI durations; pulling RVs for the majority of the OCIs. How is that not VERY similar? He ran RL and bypass filtration, and I ran dino Rotella 10w-30 and a normal filter. And yet he got the very same UOA results. And he enjoyed the priviledge of paying 4x more money for it.
If that doesn't convince you, then nothing will.
I trust Shell and Mobil than anyone else on this board. If you have data to show otherwise then let see it. They have R&D departments and a racing history to backup their claims. The FTC is not disputing their claims and their names are in the winner circle. Go to a professional race and talk to their reps, you will be surprised by what they and their racers can tell you.
We are not talking about races and competitions here.
I specifically limit my comments to on road applications; not racing, sled pulls, drag racing, etc.
He wanted to know if the protection is "better" with syn in 7k miles. NO!
Now, if he was going to greatly extned the OCI, then I'd be in complete agreement. But he's not. He lives in IN, and he's going to run "normal" OCIs.
As for facts, I see you convieniently ignored all the UOA evidence I posted. And then you hang your hat on sales rhetoric and hype. As for the "similar" comparisons, I don't understand how you don't understand. Duramax trucks; similar OCI durations; pulling RVs for the majority of the OCIs. How is that not VERY similar? He ran RL and bypass filtration, and I ran dino Rotella 10w-30 and a normal filter. And yet he got the very same UOA results. And he enjoyed the priviledge of paying 4x more money for it.
If that doesn't convince you, then nothing will.
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dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
The problem here is that you set all the parameters to suit your assumption. Why do you assume I eat squirrel meat when I just want to get rid of them? I use a 30-378 for varmint hunting because close enough some times will also kill compare to a 22LR.
Here are some more parameters set by you:
1. "In short-to-moderate OCIs, there is no advantage to using synthetics." Why do you assume everyone is using synthetic in short-to-moderate OCIs? What about gross vehicle weight? Vehicle usage/purpose?
I didn't assume everyone does short-to-moderat OCI; that is the "qualification" of the statement. I do, however, recall the OP specifically stating that he's going 5-7k miles; that is "moderate" because it's at or just over the OEM OCI. As for GVW, he already stated he baby's the vehicle most of the time.
2. "Similar uses; similar conditions; similar engines; similar results." How do you know this for sure? What is your definition of "similar" in scientific terms?
Let's see; I was comparing two UOAs; mine with dino and a guy with RL/bypass. Both of use are driving 2006 LBZ Duramax trucks, both are pulling heavy RV units for the bulk of the OCI, and we got darn near equal UOA results. How do YOU see it otherwise? This is about as fair a comparison as one can hope for. You may not see the that way, but the rest of us look at the same trucks with the same engines and no heavy mods or tuners, same heavy loads, same RV towing use, same OCI duration (6.6k miles = 10.6k km) and same resultant wear metals; I'd call it "similar". I would ask anyone else to chime in and comment of whether it's fair to call this a fair, "similar" comparison.
3. "He spent at least 4x more money for synthetics and bypass filtration, but he got NO advantage in wear protection". Again, you got all of this from anecdotal UOAs? We are not talking about the same engine on the same dino doing back to back testing of dino versus synthetic. All you are doing is guessing.
No, actually I have more than 500 diesel UOAs in my database. I do statistical process quality control for a living. I have a great understanding how to collect, analyze and disseminate data.
4. "The OP lives here in IN where I live; there is no extreme thermal concern". A data point of one, whoopee.
This is all that matters here. One new guy asking for advice in IN.
Unlike you, I don't claims synthetic is better because I do not have personal scientific data to backup my claims. Instead, I prefer you to people who manufacture oils for a living.
Yeah - like there's never been any misleading information in a sales hype. There's never been any exaggeration in sales literature. Have you ever read some of the claims and then sought the real data? Or they never stacked data to make the results seem greater than the true result.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx
"Synthetic motor oils – such as Mobil 1 – contain more highly refined base oils than those used in conventional mineral oils, which can offer you better protection and performance."
Can offer you "better protection and performance"? When and how? All the time? Some of the time? None of the time? In what temps? For what OCI duration? Comparing what fluid to what fluid? Brands and grades? Etc. That is EXACTLY they kind of sale hype and rhetoric that means NOTHING to those of us who really appreaciate facts and data.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/produc.../synthetic_oil/
"For example, compared with a normal API SG/CD mineral oil, a fully synthetic engine oil such as Shell Helix Ultra is found to deliver: Up to five times better cleansing. Up to three times more protection. Less than half as much engine wear."
Again, over what duration? Did you happen to notice that they compared their brand new up-to-current-spec oil against a VERY OLD standard oil of SG/CD? Gee, that's "fair" right? Wonder if that 5x cleaning and 1/2 wear "better"-ness would apply if they actually compared Helix to a modern CJ-4 HDEO. You see, while they are telling the "truth" they are also greatly skewing the result. Who in the world would go out an compare a "new" Helix oil to an oil that is SIX (6) diesel oil generations backwards (CJ-4, CI-4+, CI, CH, CG, CF-4) and many gas oil generations behind (SN, SM, SL, SJ, SH) ? That seem like a "fair" comparison? To compare a NEW oil to ones that are 5 or 6 generations old? And you trust that as good "data"? That is PRECISELY the kind of "sales hype" that I call "misleading". I'll bet if they compared that Helix oil to a new CJ-4 dino lube like Rotella or Delo or Delvac, it would not be "better" to any such degree. Hey - why don't we compare a new turbo Subaru WRX to an old Ford Model T engine, and we'll see how much "better" the new engine is for HP and Trq and fuel economy? That also seem fair? No - I think I'll compare it to it's contempoary competition, the Mitsu Lancer turbo. Seriously? You believe those claims of "better" when they compare Helix Ultra to oils from the 1980s? What a bunch of sales-marketing bovine poo!
There are more examples but I think you got the point. The oil manufacturers do not narrow the scope of synthetic oil usage by stating the operational parameters that only fit a small group of users.
Oh - I got the point. You believe that synthetics are better all the time, no matter what the conditions. What the lube makers do is make broad based statements to sell products. And you're drinkin' the Koolaid. You point to "examples" like grossly oudated unfair comparisons from lube makers, but ignore UOA facts that are DIRECTLY comparable in vehicle, engine, use, OCI duration and wear results. OH - I get the point all right.
Again, if you want to talk about cost then it is another matter altogether.
That is exactly the point. Why pay more money for the same results? It's not "another matter"; it's precisely the matter. Does not matter if it's dino or semi-syn or full syn. Does not matter about grade or brand. The quest is to get a fair, full use out of any lube.
It's not a good idea to waste a dino oil. It's just a worse idea to waste a syntheic oil, 'cause it costs more.
The problem here is that you set all the parameters to suit your assumption. Why do you assume I eat squirrel meat when I just want to get rid of them? I use a 30-378 for varmint hunting because close enough some times will also kill compare to a 22LR.
Here are some more parameters set by you:
1. "In short-to-moderate OCIs, there is no advantage to using synthetics." Why do you assume everyone is using synthetic in short-to-moderate OCIs? What about gross vehicle weight? Vehicle usage/purpose?
I didn't assume everyone does short-to-moderat OCI; that is the "qualification" of the statement. I do, however, recall the OP specifically stating that he's going 5-7k miles; that is "moderate" because it's at or just over the OEM OCI. As for GVW, he already stated he baby's the vehicle most of the time.
2. "Similar uses; similar conditions; similar engines; similar results." How do you know this for sure? What is your definition of "similar" in scientific terms?
Let's see; I was comparing two UOAs; mine with dino and a guy with RL/bypass. Both of use are driving 2006 LBZ Duramax trucks, both are pulling heavy RV units for the bulk of the OCI, and we got darn near equal UOA results. How do YOU see it otherwise? This is about as fair a comparison as one can hope for. You may not see the that way, but the rest of us look at the same trucks with the same engines and no heavy mods or tuners, same heavy loads, same RV towing use, same OCI duration (6.6k miles = 10.6k km) and same resultant wear metals; I'd call it "similar". I would ask anyone else to chime in and comment of whether it's fair to call this a fair, "similar" comparison.
3. "He spent at least 4x more money for synthetics and bypass filtration, but he got NO advantage in wear protection". Again, you got all of this from anecdotal UOAs? We are not talking about the same engine on the same dino doing back to back testing of dino versus synthetic. All you are doing is guessing.
No, actually I have more than 500 diesel UOAs in my database. I do statistical process quality control for a living. I have a great understanding how to collect, analyze and disseminate data.
4. "The OP lives here in IN where I live; there is no extreme thermal concern". A data point of one, whoopee.
This is all that matters here. One new guy asking for advice in IN.
Unlike you, I don't claims synthetic is better because I do not have personal scientific data to backup my claims. Instead, I prefer you to people who manufacture oils for a living.
Yeah - like there's never been any misleading information in a sales hype. There's never been any exaggeration in sales literature. Have you ever read some of the claims and then sought the real data? Or they never stacked data to make the results seem greater than the true result.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/What_Is_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx
"Synthetic motor oils – such as Mobil 1 – contain more highly refined base oils than those used in conventional mineral oils, which can offer you better protection and performance."
Can offer you "better protection and performance"? When and how? All the time? Some of the time? None of the time? In what temps? For what OCI duration? Comparing what fluid to what fluid? Brands and grades? Etc. That is EXACTLY they kind of sale hype and rhetoric that means NOTHING to those of us who really appreaciate facts and data.
http://www.shell.com/home/content/produc.../synthetic_oil/
"For example, compared with a normal API SG/CD mineral oil, a fully synthetic engine oil such as Shell Helix Ultra is found to deliver: Up to five times better cleansing. Up to three times more protection. Less than half as much engine wear."
Again, over what duration? Did you happen to notice that they compared their brand new up-to-current-spec oil against a VERY OLD standard oil of SG/CD? Gee, that's "fair" right? Wonder if that 5x cleaning and 1/2 wear "better"-ness would apply if they actually compared Helix to a modern CJ-4 HDEO. You see, while they are telling the "truth" they are also greatly skewing the result. Who in the world would go out an compare a "new" Helix oil to an oil that is SIX (6) diesel oil generations backwards (CJ-4, CI-4+, CI, CH, CG, CF-4) and many gas oil generations behind (SN, SM, SL, SJ, SH) ? That seem like a "fair" comparison? To compare a NEW oil to ones that are 5 or 6 generations old? And you trust that as good "data"? That is PRECISELY the kind of "sales hype" that I call "misleading". I'll bet if they compared that Helix oil to a new CJ-4 dino lube like Rotella or Delo or Delvac, it would not be "better" to any such degree. Hey - why don't we compare a new turbo Subaru WRX to an old Ford Model T engine, and we'll see how much "better" the new engine is for HP and Trq and fuel economy? That also seem fair? No - I think I'll compare it to it's contempoary competition, the Mitsu Lancer turbo. Seriously? You believe those claims of "better" when they compare Helix Ultra to oils from the 1980s? What a bunch of sales-marketing bovine poo!
There are more examples but I think you got the point. The oil manufacturers do not narrow the scope of synthetic oil usage by stating the operational parameters that only fit a small group of users.
Oh - I got the point. You believe that synthetics are better all the time, no matter what the conditions. What the lube makers do is make broad based statements to sell products. And you're drinkin' the Koolaid. You point to "examples" like grossly oudated unfair comparisons from lube makers, but ignore UOA facts that are DIRECTLY comparable in vehicle, engine, use, OCI duration and wear results. OH - I get the point all right.
Again, if you want to talk about cost then it is another matter altogether.
That is exactly the point. Why pay more money for the same results? It's not "another matter"; it's precisely the matter. Does not matter if it's dino or semi-syn or full syn. Does not matter about grade or brand. The quest is to get a fair, full use out of any lube.
It's not a good idea to waste a dino oil. It's just a worse idea to waste a syntheic oil, 'cause it costs more.
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1. That is exactly what I mean by you setting up your own parameters. The recommended OCI for the Ford 7.3PSD is 5K miles normal and 3K miles severe. 5-7K is not moderate like you have assumed. Get it?
2. You are comparing notes about two same model trucks and that is about it. You don't know exactly what his usage is. Your similarity assumption is lucky at best. The way I drive my Excursion is totally different than my wife and it is the same truck. She idles it a lot, does not allow cool down after high speed driving, fill up wherever convenient. I tow heavy, hunt in high altitude cold climate, run the best diesel with additives and biocide, etc. See what I mean?
3. Not all 500 UOAs are 7.3PSD from Indiana, nor 2006 LBZ, nor pulling heavy RV, etc....
4. The OP did not ask about using synthetic in Indiana. He asked about using 5W-40 in a 7.3 (not an LBZ). Since this is not a using synthetic in Indiana forum the answer should be universal usage. No where did he ask about cost.
There are no Kool-Aid about Mobil nor Shell. Their synthetic oils are proven on the track, on the road, and on the shelves. They are tested to industry standards and not just from comparing anecdotal UOAs from internet Joe Blow. If you want to talk about cost then lets look at a bigger picture.
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/news/Heavy_Duty_Trucking_synthetics_save_money.pdf
http://www.fuelproofguarantee.com/PremiumBlueExtreme.aspx
2. You are comparing notes about two same model trucks and that is about it. You don't know exactly what his usage is. Your similarity assumption is lucky at best. The way I drive my Excursion is totally different than my wife and it is the same truck. She idles it a lot, does not allow cool down after high speed driving, fill up wherever convenient. I tow heavy, hunt in high altitude cold climate, run the best diesel with additives and biocide, etc. See what I mean?
3. Not all 500 UOAs are 7.3PSD from Indiana, nor 2006 LBZ, nor pulling heavy RV, etc....
4. The OP did not ask about using synthetic in Indiana. He asked about using 5W-40 in a 7.3 (not an LBZ). Since this is not a using synthetic in Indiana forum the answer should be universal usage. No where did he ask about cost.
There are no Kool-Aid about Mobil nor Shell. Their synthetic oils are proven on the track, on the road, and on the shelves. They are tested to industry standards and not just from comparing anecdotal UOAs from internet Joe Blow. If you want to talk about cost then lets look at a bigger picture.
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/news/Heavy_Duty_Trucking_synthetics_save_money.pdf
http://www.fuelproofguarantee.com/PremiumBlueExtreme.aspx
I second the motion; this "discussion" is becoming way too hot.
Charlie
Charlie
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Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
1. That is exactly what I mean by you setting up your own parameters. The recommended OCI for the Ford 7.3PSD is 5K miles normal and 3K miles severe. 5-7K is not moderate like you have assumed.
Is it really that low? I'm not trying to be a wise guy; I really don't know. My dad had a 7.3 PSD of around that vintage, too. I knew the oil capacity, but I never checked the OCI. Is it really that short with a ~15 quart oil capacity? If I recall correctly, the HDEOs of that time frame were ridiculously high in TBN, too.
Was that OCI a holdover from the previous engine? I'd be interested to see some UOAs from the 7.3 with conventional over some longer OCIs. 3,000 miles with a ~15 quart sump of HDEO seems a little absurd to me.
1. That is exactly what I mean by you setting up your own parameters. The recommended OCI for the Ford 7.3PSD is 5K miles normal and 3K miles severe. 5-7K is not moderate like you have assumed.
Is it really that low? I'm not trying to be a wise guy; I really don't know. My dad had a 7.3 PSD of around that vintage, too. I knew the oil capacity, but I never checked the OCI. Is it really that short with a ~15 quart oil capacity? If I recall correctly, the HDEOs of that time frame were ridiculously high in TBN, too.
Was that OCI a holdover from the previous engine? I'd be interested to see some UOAs from the 7.3 with conventional over some longer OCIs. 3,000 miles with a ~15 quart sump of HDEO seems a little absurd to me.
The maintenance schedule is in the owner manual and it is 5K normal and 3k severe for 7.3PSD OCI.
http://www.ifama.net/Documents/dieselMaintenanceintervalsInfo250-550.pdf
http://www.ifama.net/Documents/dieselMaintenanceintervalsInfo250-550.pdf
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Bambam
I think there are good points being made and not too much to contradict them..
Agreed.
He ignores UOAs and touts sales hype. Not very convincing, is it? There are some people that simply will not step away from the Koolaid, no matter how many facts you give them.
Note - he ignored the point I made about the Helix Ultra Shell compared to 1980's vintage oil ... guess he either didn't catch it, or realized it wasn't nearly as impressive as he first thought.
He's pretending that my 2006 Dmax and the other 2006 Dmax, both used to tow heavy RVS, over the same distances, are somehow "different" to such a degree they they should not be compared, even though the UOA results show the same protection was afforded. To use his theory, not one of us would ever be able to compare/contrast any UOA to any other UOA, ever. There would be no such thing as "universal averages". In fact, I've noticed he's posted UOAs here before; if he thinks that is not a method worthy of comparisons and contrast, then why post UOAs? Why share information if he believes one cannot compare similar equipment in similar situations? Or, maybe he just thinks only his UOAs are worthy, but ours are not?
He's convinced that my friend's 7.3L PSD, right here in IN is somehow so glaringly differnt than the OPs 7.3L also here in IN, that I can not make viable comparisons.
And regardless of what he thinks, 5-7k miles is "moderate"; there are plenty of UOAs to show this is very viable with dino oils, in that very engine series. Gee - ever think an OEM simply sets the OCI at some convenient number that satisfies their criteria and really does not care about how the cost affects the customer? Let's recall that Cummins sets the OCI at 5k to 7.5k (year dependent) but BigGreyMegaCab is successfully running his dino VPB and normal filter out to 20k miles! For the 7.3L PSD, 5k miles on nearly 4 gallons is a total joke.
I use synthetics; I use dinos; I've used semi-syns. I have no bias; I use each where they best fit into a well designed maintenance plan. OTOH - His member name says it all.
This about one thing; a new member wants to know if he'll get "better" protection in 5-7k miles in IN using syntethic in his 7.3L? The correct answer is NO!
I think there are good points being made and not too much to contradict them..
Agreed.
He ignores UOAs and touts sales hype. Not very convincing, is it? There are some people that simply will not step away from the Koolaid, no matter how many facts you give them.
Note - he ignored the point I made about the Helix Ultra Shell compared to 1980's vintage oil ... guess he either didn't catch it, or realized it wasn't nearly as impressive as he first thought.
He's pretending that my 2006 Dmax and the other 2006 Dmax, both used to tow heavy RVS, over the same distances, are somehow "different" to such a degree they they should not be compared, even though the UOA results show the same protection was afforded. To use his theory, not one of us would ever be able to compare/contrast any UOA to any other UOA, ever. There would be no such thing as "universal averages". In fact, I've noticed he's posted UOAs here before; if he thinks that is not a method worthy of comparisons and contrast, then why post UOAs? Why share information if he believes one cannot compare similar equipment in similar situations? Or, maybe he just thinks only his UOAs are worthy, but ours are not?
He's convinced that my friend's 7.3L PSD, right here in IN is somehow so glaringly differnt than the OPs 7.3L also here in IN, that I can not make viable comparisons.
And regardless of what he thinks, 5-7k miles is "moderate"; there are plenty of UOAs to show this is very viable with dino oils, in that very engine series. Gee - ever think an OEM simply sets the OCI at some convenient number that satisfies their criteria and really does not care about how the cost affects the customer? Let's recall that Cummins sets the OCI at 5k to 7.5k (year dependent) but BigGreyMegaCab is successfully running his dino VPB and normal filter out to 20k miles! For the 7.3L PSD, 5k miles on nearly 4 gallons is a total joke.
I use synthetics; I use dinos; I've used semi-syns. I have no bias; I use each where they best fit into a well designed maintenance plan. OTOH - His member name says it all.
This about one thing; a new member wants to know if he'll get "better" protection in 5-7k miles in IN using syntethic in his 7.3L? The correct answer is NO!
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I posted my own UOAs as FYI only and not as a recommendation like you have done. You assumed you know better than Ford based on anecdotal UOAs are laughable at best. I think you have forgotten the purpose of UOAs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm
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Isaac Newton has his laws of motion. dnewton has his laws of HD oils. I've read many of his posts. They are concise, to the point, and are accurate with information. He has answered the question posed, and given solid evidence for options available. I just bought an 04 6.0 PSD, and put in a fresh change of Delvac 15w40 before doing any research. The next change will be a 10w30 diesel, and I expect zero issues, and that is based on newtons recommendations, and the UOA's posted. Frankly, I'm hoping that between the upgraded fuel pressure spring from Ford, and the 10w30, the cold performance improves. I'll certainly be saving money.. 10w30 diesels aren't quite as popular, and it's about 3-4 dollars a gallon less than the 15w40.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I posted my own UOAs as FYI only and not as a recommendation like you have done. You assumed you know better than Ford based on anecdotal UOAs are laughable at best. I think you have forgotten the purpose of UOAs.
Thanks for the link on the maintenance schedule. In any event, that is an absurdly low OCI.
As for UOAs, this is the situation to be using them. When is the lubricant condemned? If I had a 2001 PS and I was under warranty, sure, I'd follow the 3,000 mile OCI.
That being said, I'd find it hard to believe that 15 quarts of a contemporary to 2001 or modern HDEO would be so soot loaded and have such TBN depletion in 3,000 miles as to actually require it being changed out.
I posted my own UOAs as FYI only and not as a recommendation like you have done. You assumed you know better than Ford based on anecdotal UOAs are laughable at best. I think you have forgotten the purpose of UOAs.
Thanks for the link on the maintenance schedule. In any event, that is an absurdly low OCI.
As for UOAs, this is the situation to be using them. When is the lubricant condemned? If I had a 2001 PS and I was under warranty, sure, I'd follow the 3,000 mile OCI.
That being said, I'd find it hard to believe that 15 quarts of a contemporary to 2001 or modern HDEO would be so soot loaded and have such TBN depletion in 3,000 miles as to actually require it being changed out.
Originally Posted By: Garak
azsynthetic said:
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I posted my own UOAs as FYI only and not as a recommendation like you have done. You assumed you know better than Ford based on anecdotal UOAs are laughable at best. I think you have forgotten the purpose of UOAs.
Thanks for the link on the maintenance schedule. In any event, that is an absurdly low OCI.
As for UOAs, this is the situation to be using them. When is the lubricant condemned? If I had a 2001 PS and I was under warranty, sure, I'd follow the 3,000 mile OCI.
That being said, I'd find it hard to believe that 15 quarts of a contemporary to 2001 or modern HDEO would be so soot loaded and have such TBN depletion in 3,000 miles as to actually require it being changed out.
The very point most are missing here is not only have lubes advanced since the last 7.3 rolled off of the line (mid 2003 model year), but we have also progressed to USLD. If I am remembering correctly CH-4 was introduced shortly before the 7.3 was being replaced by the 6.0.
The combination of USLD and CJ-4 lubes, with UOA, one can greatly extend the OCI of an older legacy engine. As an example I have an 6076 Deere marine engine I bought new in 1992, the original OCI was 250 hrs. It was extended by Deere with the introduction of their Plus 50 line of motor oil in the mid 90's(the "plus 50" means 50% over original spec). With the progression to USLD and CJ-4 lube Deere then extended OCI's out to 500hrs. with the use of the Plus 50 II CJ-4.
I am only using this as an example, not trying to compare two completely different engines in two completely different applications, but what I am showing is how two different companies are addressing the issue at hand. Deere,being proactive, not only has a very large presence in the farming industry, but also in heavy equipment and the marine industry. Many owners in these fields not only own new equipment they also keep older less used equipment around for years. Ford on the other hand being in the automotive industry is not going to back-spec OCI's, it would be too confusing for the general public/dealers.
I do own an '89 IDI 7.3 through UOA's I have observed these older engines are much easier on oil than now than they were before USLD. DNewton is speaking for the statistical data, and it shows OCI's can be extended, even doubled or tripled depending on the engine and usage, the same as my own data has shown.
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I posted my own UOAs as FYI only and not as a recommendation like you have done. You assumed you know better than Ford based on anecdotal UOAs are laughable at best. I think you have forgotten the purpose of UOAs.
Thanks for the link on the maintenance schedule. In any event, that is an absurdly low OCI.
As for UOAs, this is the situation to be using them. When is the lubricant condemned? If I had a 2001 PS and I was under warranty, sure, I'd follow the 3,000 mile OCI.
That being said, I'd find it hard to believe that 15 quarts of a contemporary to 2001 or modern HDEO would be so soot loaded and have such TBN depletion in 3,000 miles as to actually require it being changed out.
The very point most are missing here is not only have lubes advanced since the last 7.3 rolled off of the line (mid 2003 model year), but we have also progressed to USLD. If I am remembering correctly CH-4 was introduced shortly before the 7.3 was being replaced by the 6.0.
The combination of USLD and CJ-4 lubes, with UOA, one can greatly extend the OCI of an older legacy engine. As an example I have an 6076 Deere marine engine I bought new in 1992, the original OCI was 250 hrs. It was extended by Deere with the introduction of their Plus 50 line of motor oil in the mid 90's(the "plus 50" means 50% over original spec). With the progression to USLD and CJ-4 lube Deere then extended OCI's out to 500hrs. with the use of the Plus 50 II CJ-4.
I am only using this as an example, not trying to compare two completely different engines in two completely different applications, but what I am showing is how two different companies are addressing the issue at hand. Deere,being proactive, not only has a very large presence in the farming industry, but also in heavy equipment and the marine industry. Many owners in these fields not only own new equipment they also keep older less used equipment around for years. Ford on the other hand being in the automotive industry is not going to back-spec OCI's, it would be too confusing for the general public/dealers.
I do own an '89 IDI 7.3 through UOA's I have observed these older engines are much easier on oil than now than they were before USLD. DNewton is speaking for the statistical data, and it shows OCI's can be extended, even doubled or tripled depending on the engine and usage, the same as my own data has shown.
dnewton3
Staff member
Roadrunner brings up good points as well. Nearly all lubes (PCMO, HDEO, grease, etc) are way better today than yesteryear. All the major CJ-4 players show less wear (even dino oils) over the CI-4+ oils, and much better soot control as well. 5k miles in a 7.3L is a cake walk now; especially with almost 4 gallons in the sump.
I just learned of a guy on another site that is running an F-350 7.3L PSD. Truck is used very hard in daily service. I'm trying to get the details and possible UOA info. Truck has 800k miles on it; still in service. All miles are on dino oil at normal OCIs. Gosh - I would have expected it to die 3x over by now; you know - not using synthetics and all ...
I'll glean the info and post it up. This is a friend of a member on another site.
I just learned of a guy on another site that is running an F-350 7.3L PSD. Truck is used very hard in daily service. I'm trying to get the details and possible UOA info. Truck has 800k miles on it; still in service. All miles are on dino oil at normal OCIs. Gosh - I would have expected it to die 3x over by now; you know - not using synthetics and all ...
I'll glean the info and post it up. This is a friend of a member on another site.
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dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
What?!! 3000 mi OCI for a medium duty truck diesel with a decent sized sump?
That seems insane. I've been out of touch with Ford diesels for a while though.
Charlie
When I worked at Ford in Indy many years ago, the Navistar PSD foundry and assembly plant was right around the corner from us about 3 minutes away. I once had the priviledge to visit the facility and speak at length with one of their resident product engineers for that 7.3 PSD engine. The nuances of his knowledge was quite enlightening. It had been in production for a couple years, and he told me inside facts that most don't get to hear. One of the MOST important things about those engines is to use an anti-cavitation additive in the coolant, or use a Ford/Navistart coolant (already had the additive in it). Also, the oil considerations back then were predicated on the "new" (to Navistar) HEUI technology back then. The oils had some foaming issues due to HEUI, and (as we all know) the infamous shearing. Nowdays, we know that shearing does not manifest automatically into wear issues, but back then they had to go with their "gut" feelings and OCI often due to the foaming and shearing. Today, the foaming is under control from the lube additives, and the shearing is controlled better. And, the shearing does not hurt anything as long as it's still in 30 grade territory; we see evidence of this in many UOAs here. Generally the 7.3L engine is reknowned as a stout piece and will last a LONG time if cared for well with just normal fluids and filters and other proper maintenance.
So, given what we know now, contrasted to what was presumed back then, a 3k mile OCI is a total joke, and a 5k mile OCI is a reasonable minimum.
The BEST knowledge comes from UOAs and not OEM OCI recommendations. In the ABSENCE of UOAs, then the OEM OCI is a great, safe place to set your OCI. But when UOAs show excellent performance, there is no reason to ignore the UOA and OCI too soon.
Hence, for silver1 here, his stout 7.3L PSD will easily survive 5-7k miles OCIs in Indiana with good ol' dino oil. And it won't be any "better" by using synthetics in those conditions.
Some UOAs of 7.3L PSD that are worked hard for a living:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2107323&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131440&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1801215&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1629322#Post1629322
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861473&page=1
(note the comment by the OP in this one ...
"I removed my oilguard bypass and just ran a Fleetguard Stratapore. Going to run this oil to 10,000km and change it out. the 15W40 dino performed just as well as the 5W40 Delo Syn I used to run for 1/2 the cost."
The 7.3L will shed a bit of Fe when worked hard, but that is not uncommon (we see it in the TDI's too). Hasn't stopped a 7.3 from hitting high mileage (500k or more).
Genearlly, the most all of the "modern" diesel engines really don't care about what oil is in the crankcase, as long as it's a properly spec'd fluid. The 7.3L PSD is a very robust engine and will last a LONG time, and it doesn't need synthetics to get there.
What?!! 3000 mi OCI for a medium duty truck diesel with a decent sized sump?
That seems insane. I've been out of touch with Ford diesels for a while though.
Charlie
When I worked at Ford in Indy many years ago, the Navistar PSD foundry and assembly plant was right around the corner from us about 3 minutes away. I once had the priviledge to visit the facility and speak at length with one of their resident product engineers for that 7.3 PSD engine. The nuances of his knowledge was quite enlightening. It had been in production for a couple years, and he told me inside facts that most don't get to hear. One of the MOST important things about those engines is to use an anti-cavitation additive in the coolant, or use a Ford/Navistart coolant (already had the additive in it). Also, the oil considerations back then were predicated on the "new" (to Navistar) HEUI technology back then. The oils had some foaming issues due to HEUI, and (as we all know) the infamous shearing. Nowdays, we know that shearing does not manifest automatically into wear issues, but back then they had to go with their "gut" feelings and OCI often due to the foaming and shearing. Today, the foaming is under control from the lube additives, and the shearing is controlled better. And, the shearing does not hurt anything as long as it's still in 30 grade territory; we see evidence of this in many UOAs here. Generally the 7.3L engine is reknowned as a stout piece and will last a LONG time if cared for well with just normal fluids and filters and other proper maintenance.
So, given what we know now, contrasted to what was presumed back then, a 3k mile OCI is a total joke, and a 5k mile OCI is a reasonable minimum.
The BEST knowledge comes from UOAs and not OEM OCI recommendations. In the ABSENCE of UOAs, then the OEM OCI is a great, safe place to set your OCI. But when UOAs show excellent performance, there is no reason to ignore the UOA and OCI too soon.
Hence, for silver1 here, his stout 7.3L PSD will easily survive 5-7k miles OCIs in Indiana with good ol' dino oil. And it won't be any "better" by using synthetics in those conditions.
Some UOAs of 7.3L PSD that are worked hard for a living:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2107323&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131440&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1801215&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1629322#Post1629322
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1861473&page=1
(note the comment by the OP in this one ...
"I removed my oilguard bypass and just ran a Fleetguard Stratapore. Going to run this oil to 10,000km and change it out. the 15W40 dino performed just as well as the 5W40 Delo Syn I used to run for 1/2 the cost."
The 7.3L will shed a bit of Fe when worked hard, but that is not uncommon (we see it in the TDI's too). Hasn't stopped a 7.3 from hitting high mileage (500k or more).
Genearlly, the most all of the "modern" diesel engines really don't care about what oil is in the crankcase, as long as it's a properly spec'd fluid. The 7.3L PSD is a very robust engine and will last a LONG time, and it doesn't need synthetics to get there.
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Don't forgot that the T444E (engine the 7.3 PSD is based off of, PSD has a slightly smaller oil pan and make a hair more power) has recommended OCI of 8-10k. IMHO a 7.3 should have not trouble with a 7.5k OCI even in VERY demanding conditions.
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