Synthetic vs. Conventional
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Some folks CLAIM that engine seals and gaskets are more likely to leak on synthetic than on dino, but this is hotly debated, and individual experiences vary widely.
The synthetic vs dyno debate is further clouded by the existence of Group III [pseudo]synthetics, which are just highly refined dinos. (I think of Group III as the missing link between dino and synth.)
The synthetic vs dyno debate is further clouded by the existence of Group III [pseudo]synthetics, which are just highly refined dinos. (I think of Group III as the missing link between dino and synth.)
I'm sure that full synthetic motor oil is generally better. I think the real debate, is for those folks who change their oil at intervals
If you want the absolute best, and money is no object, use synthetic. If you plan to drive your car 100-200K miles and change the oil @ OCI's of 500 or less, dino should do fine.
If you want the absolute best, and money is no object, use synthetic. If you plan to drive your car 100-200K miles and change the oil @ OCI's of 500 or less, dino should do fine.
Dr.T, you are totally wrong. With synthetic you will have lower consumption- of fuel(1-5% depending on how crappy dino you choose). One of my cars have some 210000 miles on, and it uses maybe 10 oz of oil between oil-changes(13-14000miles). It have seen only synthetic oil since new(Except two Auto-Rx cleanings). With a good synthetic, you will have less build-up of contamination in your engine, as well, compaired to a mineral oil. My other car gets OCI of 18-19000 miles, and it is a turbo-diesel!! This is because my OLM says so. However, there are bigg differences between synthetics. I used castrol syntec on the engine and the OLM said 12-13000 miles. Switched over to RP and the OLM say 18-19000 miles. I asked the Mercedes-workshop where I bought the car, how long this car goes between services, based on the OLM. They told me that it is common to do 10-12000 miles. This OLM also meassures particles and contaminants in the oil. The driving we do is 50/50 city and highway, with a lot of stop and go.
To the extent that dino oil requires shorter OCIs than synthetic: Dino is better than synthetic in engines that develop coolant leaks into the oil system, and in most (but NOT all) applications which are using an oiled gauze or oiled foam air filter in a slightly to heavily dusty or sandy environment, and in some sea-shore applications. The reason is that the shorter OCIs necessitated by the dino oil flush out the built-up contaminants when they are at a lower level and thus keeps those contaminants at a lower level than the longer-OCI synthetics. Note that this is not directly related to the oil itself, but rather the usage and drain conditions necessitated by the one oil vs. the other.
Under 5K interval, use dino. Over 5K, use synthetic. Very cold temps would be another reason to choose synthetic.
jonny-b, are you trying to tell us that your OLM can tell the difference between the quality of your oil
I hope I misinterpreted that! That would take a sampling system akin to Terry Dyson's mass spectrometers or whatever else he uses to do oil sample analysis...I don't think MB, nor any other car can do that.
I hope I misinterpreted that! That would take a sampling system akin to Terry Dyson's mass spectrometers or whatever else he uses to do oil sample analysis...I don't think MB, nor any other car can do that.
From what I understand Schaeffers 7000 series can perform close to synt.,,very good oil,,,also to mention they will becoming out with a full synt. line,in lower wts than current 9000 5w-40 ,and 15w-50,more for gasoline engine use..keep a eye on this one...BL
Titan, actually the Mercedes Flexible Service System (FSS) does utilize a "oil quality sensor {which} continually monitors the amount and type of contaminants in the oil and determines when the oil should be changed" according to a review of a 2003 Mercedes I found online:
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/MercedesE-Class/
Also mentioned here:
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_no_guesswork_mercedesbenz/
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/MercedesE-Class/
Also mentioned here:
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_no_guesswork_mercedesbenz/
Titan, a Mercedes mechanic told me that their OLM meassures the amount of particles and contaminants in the oil. What you define as quality of an oil is totally of no interest to me. The point is that the built-in OLM meassures a difference between Castrol and RP and that is OK by me. I also think it meassures the heat of the oil and how long the engine have been running and at what RPM. If the heat in the engine is 10 degrees lower with RP than with Castrol, then this will have an impact.
By the way, Titan; I am not trying to say that the OLM can analyse the oil, it is just you and your abillity to understand my bad english, that gives you this perseption of the text.
By the way, Titan; I am not trying to say that the OLM can analyse the oil, it is just you and your abillity to understand my bad english, that gives you this perseption of the text.
1) "The synthetic vs dyno debate is further clouded by the existence of Group III [pseudo]synthetics, which are just highly refined dinos. (I think of Group III as the missing link between dino and synth.)"
You beat me to making that remark. At least we think alike. The Group III Mobil-Castrol nomenclature debacle makes any Synthetic vs. conventional argument extremely ambigous. No matter what your position is on the matter, the NAD decision will continue clouding all compare & contrast threads. Unless of course your like some BITOGs who know there PAO's from GrpIII stocks
Cheers to Terry, Molekule, etc who definately know there stuff.
2)Titan, a Mercedes mechanic told me that their OLM meassures the amount of particles and contaminants in the oil.
An OEM sensor can quantitate particulate amount? Are you sure about this? It is my understanding that such a measure is very advanced beyong the capacity of some factory dip sensor.
You beat me to making that remark. At least we think alike. The Group III Mobil-Castrol nomenclature debacle makes any Synthetic vs. conventional argument extremely ambigous. No matter what your position is on the matter, the NAD decision will continue clouding all compare & contrast threads. Unless of course your like some BITOGs who know there PAO's from GrpIII stocks
2)Titan, a Mercedes mechanic told me that their OLM meassures the amount of particles and contaminants in the oil.
An OEM sensor can quantitate particulate amount? Are you sure about this? It is my understanding that such a measure is very advanced beyong the capacity of some factory dip sensor.
Outrun, if you read AndyH's posting, you will find two links. If you click on the links and read the stuff, you will find that Mercedes came with this system back in 1998. This system is included in all their models, at least from 2003.
the only automotive application where the dino might be "better" than syn is in an original style air cooled type I or II VW (or early Porsche) engine - these engines don't have oil filters, oil capacity of approx 3 qt, and the recommended OCI is 1500 mi.
experiments show that these engines with dino run much lower cylinder head temperatures than synthetic...this observation could be extended to small air cooled industrial units (lawn mowers, pressure washers, etc.)
experiments show that these engines with dino run much lower cylinder head temperatures than synthetic...this observation could be extended to small air cooled industrial units (lawn mowers, pressure washers, etc.)
I used Amsoil 10w30 on my f 150 at 185000 miles runs beter and no leaks.
Bill
Bill
I, for one, don't buy the whole logic of synthetic is better at oil consumption issues. My issue is not with the dino versus synthetic arguments, but that synthetics are often manufactured towards the thin end of the SAE grading scale, while dino oils are often formulated towards the center.
If you end up comparing a dino 5W-30 oil with operating viscosity of 12 cSt to a 5W-30 full synthtic with an operating viscosity of 10 cSt, which one do you think will get consumed faster? Now reverse the cSt numbers and repeat the question...
You see, the SAE grading scale is too wide/grade to do these kinds of empirical tests without a large number of carefully orchestrated tests...
If you end up comparing a dino 5W-30 oil with operating viscosity of 12 cSt to a 5W-30 full synthtic with an operating viscosity of 10 cSt, which one do you think will get consumed faster? Now reverse the cSt numbers and repeat the question...
You see, the SAE grading scale is too wide/grade to do these kinds of empirical tests without a large number of carefully orchestrated tests...
Kenw57,
You are correct for your manuals. But my manuals list synthetics grades as the preferred oil. And I have a laser temp checker and the temps on the cylinder head and the crankcase temps are always lower with a Synthetic oil.
A year old 5500 Watt generator w/10HP OHV, here is an exact quote from the book:
Use recommended SAE viscosity grade oil per starting temperature according to chart. Synthetic 5W30 or 10W30 for all temperature ranges.
The use of non-synthetic multi-viscosity oils (5W30 and 10W30, etc) in temperatures above 40 F will result in higher than normal oil consumption.
SAE 30W oil, if used below 40 F will result in hard starting and possible engine bore damage due to inadequate lubrication
This is from the manual for all Briggs and Stratton 110000 to 210000 engines.
I am presently using Castrol GC 0W30. I don't see consumption issues with synthetic.
You are correct for your manuals. But my manuals list synthetics grades as the preferred oil. And I have a laser temp checker and the temps on the cylinder head and the crankcase temps are always lower with a Synthetic oil.
A year old 5500 Watt generator w/10HP OHV, here is an exact quote from the book:
Use recommended SAE viscosity grade oil per starting temperature according to chart. Synthetic 5W30 or 10W30 for all temperature ranges.
The use of non-synthetic multi-viscosity oils (5W30 and 10W30, etc) in temperatures above 40 F will result in higher than normal oil consumption.
SAE 30W oil, if used below 40 F will result in hard starting and possible engine bore damage due to inadequate lubrication
This is from the manual for all Briggs and Stratton 110000 to 210000 engines.
I am presently using Castrol GC 0W30. I don't see consumption issues with synthetic.
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