Synthetic oil, made from petroleum?

[ledslinger]

Group 3 oils are called "highly refined petroleum." Since they are made from petroleum shouldn't that exclude them from being called "synthetic"

Synthetic products result from chemical synthesis: The purposeful excecution of chemical reactions to obtain a product.

I know this is a point of contention, and I don't bring this up to create a volatile thread. I just wish to discuss the fundamental issue of nomenclature of using the word "synthetic' and if group 3 oils qualify from a chemistry standpoint.

It just seems if group 3 oils are made from petroleum lubricating oil base stock, what has been synthesised?

Are there serious objections to group 3 oils being called synthetic? Has this been discussed previously? I am really starting to feel like I am being bent over purchasing group 3 oils that are called synthetic, regardless of their performance.

Any chemists?

 

[ctrcbob]

1. It is the American Ad Console that says it can be called Synthetic.

2. Group III can't be called synthetic in Europe.

3. I had M-1 0W-40 in my car, (who know if it is grp III or IV) but my car did not like it, so I dumped it and now have QS Q-Horsepower Group III, and my car loves it.

4. I only wish that the government, or the above ad console, or any agency, could/would force the oil companies to state on their bottles that their oil is Group II, III, IV or V. This way, we would know what we are buying.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: ctrcbob
1. It is the American Ad Console that says it can be called Synthetic.

2. Group III can't be called synthetic in Europe.

3. I had M-1 0W-40 in my car, (who know if it is grp III or IV) but my car did not like it, so I dumped it and now have QS Q-Horsepower Group III, and my car loves it.

4. I only wish that the government, or the above ad console, or any agency, could/would force the oil companies to state on their bottles that their oil is Group II, III, IV or V. This way, we would know what we are buying.


Yep,eliminate the guess work.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: ledslinger
Group 3 oils are called "highly refined petroleum." Since they are made from petroleum shouldn't that exclude them from being called "synthetic"


If the petroleum molecules are largely disassembled and then re-assembled, how is that any different from disassembling and reassembling, eg., natural gas (methane) molecules and reassembling them?

 

[dsmith41]

There is little to no practical difference between a group III and group IV oil. Group III means they took dino and made it act like synthetic chemically.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: ctrcbob

4. I only wish that the government, or the above ad console, or any agency, could/would force the oil companies to state on their bottles that their oil is Group II, III, IV or V. This way, we would know what we are buying.


Yep,eliminate the guess work.


How about PERFORMANCE BASED standards? I'm not terribly concerned what the fractions of group III, IV, and V are if the oil works well. I DO like to know how much of certain additives there are, and no one will ever require the oil companies to publish *that* information since its part of the proprietary package. Really group fraction is also part of that. Each group type has certain advantages (for example, as I understand it, Group III oils tend to be better solvents for additive packages, so adding some group III to a predominantly Group IV or V oil can increase its ability to carry key additives). MOST oils contain a mixture of different groups in at least small percentages.

I'd much rather that antifreezes be clearly labeled as to which ones contain ethyl hexanoates than worry so much about whether Mobil 1 is more Group IV than Group III or PP is more Group III than Group IV.

 

[ledslinger]

quote by dsmith41

There is little to no practical difference between a group III and group IV oil. Group III means they took dino and made it act like synthetic chemically.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it is dino processed to "act like' synthetic. That doesn't make it synthetic.

I suppose if you separate water into O and H, then recombine to make water, it is synthetic water. Is that what group 3 essentially does? Is the petro base broken down into basic elements or compounds that are unlike oil, then reformed into oil?

 

[postjeeprcr]

Originally Posted By: ctrcbob
1. It is the American Ad Console that says it can be called Synthetic.

2. Group III can't be called synthetic in Europe.

3. I had M-1 0W-40 in my car, (who know if it is grp III or IV) but my car did not like it, so I dumped it and now have QS Q-Horsepower Group III, and my car loves it.

4. I only wish that the government, or the above ad console, or any agency, could/would force the oil companies to state on their bottles that their oil is Group II, III, IV or V. This way, we would know what we are buying.


I do not believe it was the American Ad Council that said it could be called synthetic, I believe it was the SAE or API. I have seen it mentioned on here before.

 

[CourierDriver]

what went on in ur engine that lead u to think it did not like the oil...........

 

[ARCOgraphite]

It was a NAB hearing. SAE ran and hid, and removed their definition of synthetic. You think men in black are scary, look out for men in white rhinestones with tall hats from Texas

And grpiii is not synthetic by any means, its a petroleum derived product. Does that make it bad? Nope. Does it make you pay more for a less costly base stock? Yep.
Now what I want to know, is Margerine synthetic butter?

 

[aquariuscsm]

To my understanding,group III oils are just "distilled/purified" dino oils,cleaned up per se,sort`ve like how water from the ground is cleaned up and turned into distilled/purified water.

A true synthetic to my understanding is something that`s not an oil to begin with,but is "manufactured" chemically from different chemical compounds that is turned into a lubricant,right?

Now,what I`ve always wanted to know,are the "real" synthetics better lubricants? I was told that either a group I or group II in raw form is actually the best at lubricating.

I may be way off,but that`s how I understand it.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
To my understanding,group III oils are just "distilled/purified" dino oils,cleaned up per se,sort`ve like how water from the ground is cleaned up and turned into distilled/purified water.


I think that slack-wax derived severely hydrotreated oils go pretty far past that definition. I base that on readings that the better chemists than I (I be a 'lectrical injuneer) have posted here.

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
A true synthetic to my understanding is something that`s not an oil to begin with,but is "manufactured" chemically from different chemical compounds that is turned into a lubricant,right?


Well, all of the oils we (Groups 1-4 anyway) use are derived from either liquid-like stuff that comes out of the ground (crude oil) or a gas that is almost always associated with deposits of the liquid-like stuff in the ground (natural gas). It was posted here earlier that one of the ways to make Group IV PAOs doesn't even start with natural gas, it starts with crude. In other words, they ALL start out as hydrocarbons and end up as a different sort of hydrocarbon and one that is much more consistent. At that point, is there really a difference? Not so much.


Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Now,what I`ve always wanted to know,are the "real" synthetics better lubricants? I was told that either a group I or group II in raw form is actually the best at lubricating.


And as I understand it, esters (which fall in group V) are not the best at lubricating, inherently anyway. The lubricating properties are mostly a function of the additives and you want the base stock to a) carry the additives and get them where they need to be b) do no harm, c) be stable in thickness, resist contamination, and d) not degrade (iow be stable chemically also).

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Regardless of performance? Their performance is excellent

 

[PT1]

I don't think it was the API or SAE or NBI or AFL/CIO it was the NBA....

 

[edhackett]

Yes, it was all marketing. A way to sell you an oil made from a base stock that cost 1/4 for the same price.

Ed

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Yes, it was all marketing. A way to sell you an oil made from a base stock that cost 1/4 for the same price.

Ed


Yep! Pretty good idea...wish I would have thought of it. Then...put it on sale with a rebate and get more of the GRPIV buyers on board...the rebate gives you a list of DIYers name & address. Then you start mailing them coupons for more "free" stuff.

 

[edhackett]

I should add that I have nothing against Group III oils. They can, and do perform very well, extremely well for the best of the lot. I do have an issue with the pricing. They would perform just as well if you were charged half of what the Group IV oil sold for, and the oil company would still make more profit than they did on the Group IV oil.

Ed

 

[endeavor to persevere]

Originally Posted By: postjeeprcr
Originally Posted By: ctrcbob
1. It is the American Ad Console that says it can be called Synthetic.

2. Group III can't be called synthetic in Europe.

3. I had M-1 0W-40 in my car, (who know if it is grp III or IV) but my car did not like it, so I dumped it and now have QS Q-Horsepower Group III, and my car loves it.

4. I only wish that the government, or the above ad console, or any agency, could/would force the oil companies to state on their bottles that their oil is Group II, III, IV or V. This way, we would know what we are buying.


I do not believe it was the American Ad Council that said it could be called synthetic, I believe it was the SAE or API. I have seen it mentioned on here before.


http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/136604995/m/486601356

 

[edhackett]

Just to show how badly you are getting ripped off for G III "synthetics", here are the current base oil prices. It costs about 21 cents more a quart for G III than G II. Yup, $0.21 added cost for the oil company, $3.00-$4.00 for you.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article001628735.cfm?x=b11,0,w

Looks like you have to cut and paste the link.

Ed

 

[Tom NJ]

It is a gray area and depends on how you wish to define the word "synthetic".

One common definition of a "synthetic" compound is one that was created by combining one or more molecules through chemical reactions to form a new molecule.

Another common definition of a "synthetic" compound is a molecule that was made by man and not extracted from nature.

PAOs are generally accepted by all as being "synthetic" because they are made by combining alphaolefins into polyalphaolefins, that is, a new molecule is formed by chemical reactions conducted by man. The fact that the alphaolefins were formed from ethylene, and the ethylene was derived from crude oil, is not relevant to the definition.

Esters are generally considered by all to be "synthetic" because they are made by combining acids and alcohols into esters, that is, a new molecule is formed by chemical reactions conducted by man. The fact that most of the acids and alcohols were formed from chemicals that were derived from crude oil, is not relevant to the definition.

Group III base oils are made by breaking apart crude oil molecules and rearranging them into new molecules, a process using high temperatures, pressures, and catalysts. Technically you are not "combining one or more molecules through chemical reactions to form a new molecule", but you are creating "new man made" molecules that were not "extracted" from nature. Does it really matter that the "new man made" molecules were made by rearranging other molecules, rather than combining other molecules? Does it really matter that the starting molecules were derived from crude oil? It didn't for PAOs and esters.

What it comes down to is simply this: is a compound synthetic because it is a new molecule made by man that did not previously exist as is in nature, or is a compound synthetic based on how the molecule was formed, or what it was formed from?

There is no universally accepted answer to these questions since it all depends on how you define the word "synthetic", and therein lies the controversy. I could argue either side of this, but why bother - in the real world the definition of "synthetic" is a marketing matter, not a technical matter.

I should point out that the NAD ruling that "Group IIIs" are "synthetic" actually applied only to a specific Shell Group III+ base oil being used by Castrol at the time that was made from slack wax, more like the PAO process. Other Group IIIs may, by definition, differ from "non-synthetic" Group IIs by a single VI point. Not much of a distinction.

Tom NJ