synth and seals

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I think the M1 High Mileage 10W-30 is probably one of the best Mobil 1 oils. Lots of moly, calcium and zinc, one of the lowest pour points of any Mobil 1 oil, and it's cheap.
 
Quote:
We question why anyone would want to go back to a chemistry that will start the process of seal material degradation all over again.


Sounds like a pretty strong opinion!!

Quote:
...chemistry that will start the process of seal material degradation all over again.


Malarky!!
 
Originally Posted By: Mark888
If you have a 2007 or 2008 Honda or Toyota, you should not be using Auto-Rx. Maybe there is a problem if you have a leak, and then use use Auto-Rx, and then switch to a synthetic right after that--I can't comment on that. But unless you have a serious problem you should not be using Auto-Rx.

The original PAO synthetic oils many years ago had problems with seals, but they now have additives to resolve that. If you are concerned about the effect of PAO on seals use a Group III synthetic like PP.

I used M1 5W-30 for 11 years in my 1998 Toyota Camry V6, and the oil level never noticeably dropped below Full between 6-7 OCI, and I never encountered even the slightest leak or oozing of oil anywhere.

The worst thing you could possibly put in your relatively new engine is a product like Auto-Rx. If the auto manufacturer were to find out you used Auto-RX, and there was a problem with your engine, you will be in deep dodo (read your owners manual).


I haven't used it nor plan to. I was reading up on synthetics and was confused about auto rx's claim about the effect of synthetics on seals
 
I know it's not much but I have 170K on my engine and have used mainly Grp IV PAO based synthetic in it and it isn't leaking, seeping, or weeping a drop anywhere...

I think this is a myth.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: mozart
I could use your help in understanding something I just read about using synthetic oil and engine seals.

I got this from the auto rx FAQ:

http://www.auto-rx.com/pages/faqs.htm

"Q: I've heard that synthetic oil can adversely affect my seals. Does Auto-Rx® help?

A: We believe that high-mileage engines using synthetic/semi-synthetic or high-mileage oil weaken the seal material and it loses its pliability.

For those who have rear main oil seal leaks and want to use Auto-Rx® to try and stop them, we tell them to use non-synthetic oil to firm up the seal material after Auto-Rx® has cleaned it, as the chemistry in non-synthetic oil makes seals harden just right to effect a tight seal. After your leak is stopped, you can use any oil you want

We question why anyone would want to go back to a chemistry that will start the process of seal material degradation all over again. One way around this problem is to use 3 ounces of Auto-Rx® with each oil change after a rear main seal leak is stopped. Now you are protecting seal degradation and can use synthetic, semi-synthetic, or high-mileage oil without creating a new leak problem."

Comments?


Just to clarify, the quote above is not mine. It is from the Auto-Rx website and can be found by navigating the link I provided.

In re reading it as well as checking the posts, I think auto-rx may be saying synthetic oils keep the seals pliable but the dinos don't. Am I reading that correctly?

I really don't understand this part:
"We question why anyone would want to go back to a chemistry that will start the process of seal material degradation all over again. "

Which chemistry are they talking about? dino? synth?

confused,
mozart
 
Originally Posted By: GrampsintheSand
Use AutoRX with confidence at any stage of a cars life. It is an ester based oil. Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975 covers this specifically. One of the major proponents of this act was B&G....a large manufacturer/blender of "additives". Simply put.....you utilize AutoRX and have a warranty issue the manufacturer would have to prove AutoRX was the direct cause of the failure.Never happen. So the above post is totally misguided and misleading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act
If I subscribed to the above quote RLI would void my warranty would it not? Of course not. Just silly.

It's an oil additive, not an oil. Most manufacturers specifically warn against using an oil additive. Would you fill your entire crankcase with Auto-Rx at next oil change? No, because it is additive, not a motor oil (even though it may have some motor oil base stock in it).
 
I've used synt. oil for decades and never had a need for any oil additive since my engines stay very clean.
 
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
If you have a 2007 or 2008 Honda or Toyota, you should not be using Auto-Rx.

I'll have to go back and check, but I don't remember seeing that you can't use Group V POE/di-ester/lanolin ester based oils in a 2009 Toyota RAV4. Was this on the ARX website?

What I mean is that Auto-Rx is an additive and most auto manufacturers warn you to not use an additive in your oil.

But basically what I meant is there is nothing that could have happened to such a relatively new engine that would warrant using Auto-Rx, such as fixing an oil leak (hopefully). A good synthetic oil will do sufficient cleaning over time to clean out relatively new engine, and keep it clean going forward.
 
I agree that the op does not need ARX in this application. Just wanted to clarify that you were not treating it as if it would hurt something. Maybe I misunderstood what you were getting at. I have personally used many synthetics over the years and am a firm believe that they keep engines clean and actually prevent seal leaks. The only applications that I have ever used ARX in were ones that saw dino oil and had existing ring sticking/sludge issues.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
I've used synt. oil for decades and never had a need for any oil additive since my engines stay very clean.

Exactly.
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
I know it's not much but I have 170K on my engine and have used mainly Grp IV PAO based synthetic in it and it isn't leaking, seeping, or weeping a drop anywhere...

I think this is a myth.
grin2.gif


A long time ago, there were potential problems with PAO and seals, especially if one switched to synthetic after using conventional oil for a long time. However, they now put in additives to the oil to fix this problem (and have for a long time).

So while it is no longer an issue (and not really an issue at all for Group III synthetics), it is not completely a myth.
 
Originally Posted By: Mark888
Originally Posted By: GrampsintheSand
Use AutoRX with confidence at any stage of a cars life. It is an ester based oil. Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975 covers this specifically. One of the major proponents of this act was B&G....a large manufacturer/blender of "additives". Simply put.....you utilize AutoRX and have a warranty issue the manufacturer would have to prove AutoRX was the direct cause of the failure.Never happen. So the above post is totally misguided and misleading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act
If I subscribed to the above quote RLI would void my warranty would it not? Of course not. Just silly.

It's an oil additive, not an oil. Most manufacturers specifically warn against using an oil additive. Would you fill your entire crankcase with Auto-Rx at next oil change? No, because it is additive, not a motor oil (even though it may have some motor oil base stock in it).


It's basically an oil. It's made up of 3 esters. It just has no other additives like zinc or moly, so it's more like an oil base stock before the AW additives are introduced.

Adding 4oz of pure PAO do your oil wouldn't be the same as using an additive, would it?
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
It's basically an oil. It's made up of 3 esters. It just has no other additives like zinc or moly, so it's more like an oil base stock before the AW additives are introduced.

Adding 4oz of pure PAO do your oil wouldn't be the same as using an additive, would it?

Basically? Are you sure it has no other additives? Absolutely none?

Would you be willing to fill your entire crankcase with it?

Would an auto manufacturer classify it as an additive? (yes they would).

If one uses a synthetic on a relatively new engine, there is absolutely no reason to use Auto-Rx.
 
I would be just as willing to fill my entire crankcase with Auto RX as I would with an API SA rated oil. I'm about 99.99% certain there is nothing in Auto RX besides Polyol Ester, Aliphatic ester, and a Lanolin ester.

Doesn't really matter what the auto manufacturer would classify it as, since they would have to run the oil through a GCMS to even detect it.

It has been proven that a synthetic oil alone will not keep an engine spotless. There have been engines that have run synthetic all their life that still plugged their piston rings, and engines that developed varnish after switching to synthetic. Synthetic often form the nastiest, hardest to remove deposits of any oils. PAO especially. Having the Auto RX in the sump can benefit by keeping those deposits cleaned off.
 
Originally Posted By: Mark888
If you have a 2007 or 2008 Honda or Toyota, you should not be using Auto-Rx.


If you have a 07 or 08 Toyota or Honda why on earth would you want to use auto-rx? Just use PP with a 5000 OCI and you will never need auto-rx.
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
If you have a 07 or 08 Toyota or Honda why on earth would you want to use auto-rx? Just use PP with a 5000 OCI and you will never need auto-rx.

Or any other decent sythtetic.

That is exactly my point.
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
It has been proven that a synthetic oil alone will not keep an engine spotless. There have been engines that have run synthetic all their life that still plugged their piston rings, and engines that developed varnish after switching to synthetic. Synthetic often form the nastiest, hardest to remove deposits of any oils. PAO especially. Having the Auto RX in the sump can benefit by keeping those deposits cleaned off.

I don't think that is usually the case. Most engines using a high quality synthetic are extremely clean. Some synthetics have the same or similar esters already included to do that.
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I would be just as willing to fill my entire crankcase with Auto RX as I would with an API SA rated oil. I'm about 99.99% certain there is nothing in Auto RX besides Polyol Ester, Aliphatic ester, and a Lanolin ester.

Doesn't really matter what the auto manufacturer would classify it as, since they would have to run the oil through a GCMS to even detect it.

It has been proven that a synthetic oil alone will not keep an engine spotless. There have been engines that have run synthetic all their life that still plugged their piston rings, and engines that developed varnish after switching to synthetic. Synthetic often form the nastiest, hardest to remove deposits of any oils. PAO especially. Having the Auto RX in the sump can benefit by keeping those deposits cleaned off.


Can you provide picture proof of this? Not being a jerk, just would love to see an engine all gunked up because of Synthetic use...
 
Some time ago I asked our engineers who design seals a question about compatibility with synthetic oil. Their answer is that they test the seals only in the manufacturer-recommended fluid. They don't know if it's compatible with synthetic fluid. Testing costs money and they can't afford to test a what-if situation.

With many manufacturers moving toward synthetic lubes, this may be a moot point. If compatibility with synthetic was an issue, I think we'd hear of these problem in wholesale on this board.
 
Not to mention manufacturers wouldn't be selling something that isn't compatible with the seals out there. Especially at 3 times the price of Dino... I'm sure they have done there research.

It was probably a problem years ago, but today is a non-issue because Oil technology has advanced...

grin2.gif
 
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