[ April 07, 2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: bighead ]
Syntec 5w-50, 10K miles, Geo Metro
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[ April 07, 2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: bighead ]
If any car would see mileage decrease because of thicker oil, it would definitely be a Metro!quote:
Originally posted by bighead:
54MPG??? that puts hybrids to shame. I mean, after all it IS a metro
You right about that. Now I don't think I'll worry about mileage decreasing when I switch to GC next OCI
Looks outstanding
and the motor/oil choice is obviously a perfect match! Such great results and with only a 3.5 qt. sump.
TR3-2001SE......I don't think anyone is pushing 20w oils as one-size fits all choice. The majority of people who do use 20w oils seem to say they seem to be working well in applications where they are specified. Nothing more, nothing less.
TR3-2001SE......I don't think anyone is pushing 20w oils as one-size fits all choice. The majority of people who do use 20w oils seem to say they seem to be working well in applications where they are specified. Nothing more, nothing less.
My run down 3 cylinder 5 speed Metro that I had last summer turned in high 40's for highway fuel mileage, and my engine was beat to **** , leaked lots of oil, was down to 90 PSI compression on the 3rd cylinder, lots of valvetrain noise.
I had a 1995 Metro with the same engine. I ran 10W30 in the winter and 20W50 in the warm months. I would also use up odd ball 1/2 and 1/4 quarts of oil left over from other jobs! My metro only burnt oil when I drove it foot tot he floor board to detroit and back etc.... Round town and moderate 40 mile highway trips it never burnt any oil. I eventaly switch over to 15W40 shortly before I got rid of it!
The person who bought it off me took it past 300,000. I did the brakes,fuel filter, plugs and wires and a cap and rotor and that was about it! THe next guy a relative of mine did the braks while he owned it as well!
The person who bought it off me took it past 300,000. I did the brakes,fuel filter, plugs and wires and a cap and rotor and that was about it! THe next guy a relative of mine did the braks while he owned it as well!
A big engine running at low power will suffer fuel economy loss from thick oil more than a small one running near it's maximum, since there's more total lubricated surface area in the large engine, in proportion to the power output at highway speeds. That's why the Geo can give good gas mileage with thick oils.
A 0w40 might also do well.
A 0w40 might also do well.
Nice results. Have you noticed more of less make-up oil needed with the thicker oils?
Another sterling performance by an oil from the company some people love to hate.
I was just musing: it's too bad we can't quantify reduced wear in $$$$ terms because then maybe some folks who are convinced Castrol's synthetics are a major rip-off and that Castrol is on the most wanted list would have to re-think their position.
I was just musing: it's too bad we can't quantify reduced wear in $$$$ terms because then maybe some folks who are convinced Castrol's synthetics are a major rip-off and that Castrol is on the most wanted list would have to re-think their position.
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The elves cheated me!
EQUIPMENT MAKE: Geo Metro XFi
EQUIPMENT MODEL: 1.0 Liter, 3 cyl.
FUEL TYPE: Gasoline (Unleaded)
OIL USE INTERVAL: 9,990 Miles
MILES ON VEHICLE: 239,978
OIL TYPE & GRADE: Castrol Syntec 5W/50
OIL CAPACITY: 3.5 qts
MAKE-UP OIL ADDED: 1.5 qts
OIL FILTER: Pure One (Standard size)
Air Filter: Purolator, made in Korea (white element)
SAMPLE DATE: 03/31/05
LOCATION: SAN JOSE, CA
(MY COMMENTS BELOW)
ELEMENTS IN PPM
ALUMINUM 2
CHROMIUM 1
IRON 6
COPPER 6
LEAD 2
TIN 1
MOLYBDENUM 41
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 1
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 0
BORON 25
SILICON 7
SODIUM 3
CALCIUM 3103
MAGNESIUM 7
PHOSPHORUS 791
ZINC 880
BARIUM 0
PROPERTIES: SHOULD BE / TESTED
SUS VISCOSITY @ 210*F: 83-92 / 90.8 (approx. 18.2 cST @ 100*C)
FLASHPOINT: >385 / 395
FUEL %: ANTIFREEZE %: 0 / 0
WATER %: 0 / 0
INSOLUBLES: 0.3
TBN: >1.0 / 3.2
BLACKSTONE'S COMMENTS:
ERIC: We have no idea why you are using an oil this heavy in your Metro engine, unless you are
thinking it's plugging some wide gaps left from worn parts at 239,978 miles. We can't tell you that you are right or wrong about that, but we can tell you your engine wear is perfect at this advanced stage of life. Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from this type of engine after about 3,440 miles run on the oil. Your oil was in use far longer and wear read at average levels, which in our book, is "perfect." The TBN was fine at 3.2. 1.0 or less is low. Nice engine. Going for a record?
MY COMMENTS:
Yes, or, at least like to see if I can get past 300K on this nice little Suzuki engine.
My hearty thanks to Blackstone for superfast turn-around, great service!
I'm very happy with wear numbers and silica level (air filtering).
The slightly thicker viscosity (17.4cST is nominal for this oil) may be from some residual Synpower 20w-50 I idled through as a "clean-out quart" at beginning of this run. Since TBN looks healthy I may run GTX 10w-40 as a "clean-out quart" to save a couple bucks in future.
DRIVING CONDITIONS:
Due to some cold engine knocking on startup and mild knocking under load: long (3-4 minute) warm ups and gentle driving (no freeway) until coolant is at full operating temp.
Daily commute 20 miles each way, 80-90% freeway driving (70 mph max sustained speed).
One overheating episode during this run due to spit coolant hose.
Some dusty dirt road exposure and low temp starts (5-20*F).
MILEAGE AND POWER WITH THICK OIL:
Broke engine in on conventional 5w-30 and ran the Syntec 5w-50 most of it's life.
Recently ran M1 0w-30 for a short run and noticed slightly faster spoolup and maybe one mpg increase at most (49 vs. 50 mpg mixed driving). Recent long distance 700 mile round trip (over the sierra mountains and back) averaged 54 mpg running the 5w-50. I'm very happy with this.
NEXT RUN:
Now trying XL oversize filter (Pure One PL30001) to hopefully improve cold start oil flow, reduce dirty end bypass, esp near end of OCI as filter clogs up. Hoping extra 1/2 qt fresh oil may improve TBN slightly and dilute contaminants a little more.
Now using AC Delco air filter (made in USA) after seeing this info I found on BITOG air filter forum.
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice, esp on using conventional oil as a clean-out quart between changes?
(Will be out of town next few days.)
[ April 07, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Ericm ]
EQUIPMENT MODEL: 1.0 Liter, 3 cyl.
FUEL TYPE: Gasoline (Unleaded)
OIL USE INTERVAL: 9,990 Miles
MILES ON VEHICLE: 239,978
OIL TYPE & GRADE: Castrol Syntec 5W/50
OIL CAPACITY: 3.5 qts
MAKE-UP OIL ADDED: 1.5 qts
OIL FILTER: Pure One (Standard size)
Air Filter: Purolator, made in Korea (white element)
SAMPLE DATE: 03/31/05
LOCATION: SAN JOSE, CA
(MY COMMENTS BELOW)
ELEMENTS IN PPM
ALUMINUM 2
CHROMIUM 1
IRON 6
COPPER 6
LEAD 2
TIN 1
MOLYBDENUM 41
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 1
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 0
BORON 25
SILICON 7
SODIUM 3
CALCIUM 3103
MAGNESIUM 7
PHOSPHORUS 791
ZINC 880
BARIUM 0
PROPERTIES: SHOULD BE / TESTED
SUS VISCOSITY @ 210*F: 83-92 / 90.8 (approx. 18.2 cST @ 100*C)
FLASHPOINT: >385 / 395
FUEL %: ANTIFREEZE %: 0 / 0
WATER %: 0 / 0
INSOLUBLES: 0.3
TBN: >1.0 / 3.2
BLACKSTONE'S COMMENTS:
ERIC: We have no idea why you are using an oil this heavy in your Metro engine, unless you are
thinking it's plugging some wide gaps left from worn parts at 239,978 miles. We can't tell you that you are right or wrong about that, but we can tell you your engine wear is perfect at this advanced stage of life. Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from this type of engine after about 3,440 miles run on the oil. Your oil was in use far longer and wear read at average levels, which in our book, is "perfect." The TBN was fine at 3.2. 1.0 or less is low. Nice engine. Going for a record?
MY COMMENTS:
Yes, or, at least like to see if I can get past 300K on this nice little Suzuki engine.
My hearty thanks to Blackstone for superfast turn-around, great service!
I'm very happy with wear numbers and silica level (air filtering).
The slightly thicker viscosity (17.4cST is nominal for this oil) may be from some residual Synpower 20w-50 I idled through as a "clean-out quart" at beginning of this run. Since TBN looks healthy I may run GTX 10w-40 as a "clean-out quart" to save a couple bucks in future.
DRIVING CONDITIONS:
Due to some cold engine knocking on startup and mild knocking under load: long (3-4 minute) warm ups and gentle driving (no freeway) until coolant is at full operating temp.
Daily commute 20 miles each way, 80-90% freeway driving (70 mph max sustained speed).
One overheating episode during this run due to spit coolant hose.
Some dusty dirt road exposure and low temp starts (5-20*F).
MILEAGE AND POWER WITH THICK OIL:
Broke engine in on conventional 5w-30 and ran the Syntec 5w-50 most of it's life.
Recently ran M1 0w-30 for a short run and noticed slightly faster spoolup and maybe one mpg increase at most (49 vs. 50 mpg mixed driving). Recent long distance 700 mile round trip (over the sierra mountains and back) averaged 54 mpg running the 5w-50. I'm very happy with this.
NEXT RUN:
Now trying XL oversize filter (Pure One PL30001) to hopefully improve cold start oil flow, reduce dirty end bypass, esp near end of OCI as filter clogs up. Hoping extra 1/2 qt fresh oil may improve TBN slightly and dilute contaminants a little more.
Now using AC Delco air filter (made in USA) after seeing this info I found on BITOG air filter forum.
http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice, esp on using conventional oil as a clean-out quart between changes?
(Will be out of town next few days.)
[ April 07, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Ericm ]
All I can say is WOW! You are the man! Where are the guys that say thinner is better now?
Ericm,
Great UOA!
Were your past OCI's around 10,000 miles as well?
You wrote added 1.5 qts make-up oil during this run, is that typical for this Metro?
Just curious.
My next door neighbor has a 97 Metro, he has 195,000 miles and is really pleased with the car,
he told me he was concerned when he bought the car used in 1998, he has had no problems with the car except for the air conditioning condensor needing to be replaced.
He is happy with the mileage he gets in his Metro with all of the city driving he does.
I've honestly seen a consistent 3% fuel savings when comparing the Amsoil 0w-30 to their 10w-30 under the same conditions. I find it very hard to believe the variation in fuel efficiency between 0w-30 and 5w-50 is only 2% in a mechanically sound engine. Of course, you have 240,000 miles on this motor, so the rings/cylinder gap is pretty large and the 50wt oil is giving you better compression. But I'd never recommend a 5w-50 for any newer engine as a general practice....
I'd suggest the 0w-30, German Castrol for this application. It's thick enough (HT/HS of 3.6 Cp, vs 4.8 Cp for the 5w-50) to give you good compression and it's significantly more thermally stable than the 5w-50 stuff. It will also lower your peak oil temps by 10F to 15F which you'll appreciate in hot weather.
Tooslick
I'd suggest the 0w-30, German Castrol for this application. It's thick enough (HT/HS of 3.6 Cp, vs 4.8 Cp for the 5w-50) to give you good compression and it's significantly more thermally stable than the 5w-50 stuff. It will also lower your peak oil temps by 10F to 15F which you'll appreciate in hot weather.
Tooslick
It's amazing to me that these 3 cyl Geo's can go 300K (or more) when properly maintained. It's good to see you're living "outside the box" in terms of motor oil. 50wt isn't too popular in economy cars, but it won't hurt it, either.
I agree with TooSlick that GC may be the best overall choice. But with an engine with that many miles, 50wt is showing itself to be very able in your ride. Even with 1.5qts of makeup oil.
I wonder how M1 15w-50 would stack up against the Castrol 5w-50 product in terms of MPG and consumption?
I agree with TooSlick that GC may be the best overall choice. But with an engine with that many miles, 50wt is showing itself to be very able in your ride. Even with 1.5qts of makeup oil.
I wonder how M1 15w-50 would stack up against the Castrol 5w-50 product in terms of MPG and consumption?
The engine and manual trans. in the Geo is very durable if maintained. They will not tolerate abuse well at all though by abuse I mean neglect!The problems I had with my Geo were almost always related to the low grade fastners used by Suzki!!! Ever time I touched a nut or bolt I had to get and ez-out or drill and tap or hot wrench it! The fastener were butter soft and rusted. The brake rotors were made with poor material too and started to delaminate for lack of a better description. I have seen this happen on Ford minivans as well! Layers deep inside were rusting at the same rate or faster then surface layers and the material was comeing off in layers from the inside out! I had to replace one wheel bearing in the rear at something like 180,000 miles!
ToyotaNSaturn,
I'm a little concerned about trying the 15w-50 due to some winter 5*F starts in high desert. I did some crude low temp tests by cooling samples in the freezer and comparing how fast they poured. The 15w-50 was slightly more viscous than the 5w-50 at -4*F, but they seemed pretty close. If TBN had turned out low on the Syntec, I was planning to try a mix of M1 15w-50 & 0w-40.
TooSlick,
Frankly, I was very suprised at the minimal mileage difference between oil weights.
REgarding the GC 0w-30, I do plan to try this in my 2003 Honda Insight (also a 1.0L, 3 cyl) after warranty expires. It's the recommended oil for the US version Insight on Castrol's UK website.
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