Switching from 0w-20 to 0w-30 experience

Oh 100% agreed, monograde is infinitely more stable, and c=0 or c-o-c is very durable against impact or pressure, but there is also a reason why synthetic oil is more stable than mineral oil, even though both are just base. But with contamination, especially Ethanol, and under high temperature (think Turbo) they may not be so stable, and here we are talking about relatively high weight molecules, not lower. Perhaps its of the reasons why 0w20 seems to be more stable than, lets say, 15w50.


But again for the practical applications i completely agree with you. I just wanted to point out a little nuance there.
Like how?

Even with ethanol the hydrocarbon oil base will not reduce its molecular length. VM may but the oil will not.

0W-20 might be more shear stable than a 15W-50 but that is again due to the amount or type of VM. In either case the oil molecules themselves are not affected. ~C25 chains cannot be affected by mechanical shear in an ICE. At that chain length, the molecule sizes are like minuscule balls to the gears or whatever creates mechanical force, not a linear presentation.
 
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Like how?

Even with ethanol the hydrocarbon oil base will not reduce its molecular length. VM may but the oil will not.

0W-20 might be more shear stable than a 15W-50 but that is again due to the amount or type of VM. In either case the oil molecules themselves are not affected. ~C25 chains cannot be affected by mechanical shear in an ICE.
My apologies if I was not clear enough. I do agree with you that those covalent bonds are durable against mechanical shear, i was talking about thermal degradation.
 
My apologies if I was not clear enough. I do agree with you that those covalent bonds are durable against mechanical shear, i was talking about thermal degradation.
Yes, I would say that applies to Group IV and V based synthetics though. Most of today’s synthetics are Group III and there the thermal stability is due to the degree of saturation and level of contaminants. The other two groups have inherent stability due to the molecular structure. PAO has inherent oxidative stability over a linear chain hydrocarbon.
 
Mobil buys base oils from Shell (GTL)? That's surprising to me, given the infrastructure Mobil must have already spent on refining/creating base oils. Odd that they'd want to spend money on buying base oils when they produce so much.
Yes, because it's cheaper than using PAO (that they produce).
 
Like how?

Even with ethanol the hydrocarbon oil base will not reduce its molecular length. VM may but the oil will not.

0W-20 might be more shear stable than a 15W-50 but that is again due to the amount or type of VM. In either case the oil molecules themselves are not affected. ~C25 chains cannot be affected by mechanical shear in an ICE. At that chain length, the molecule sizes are like minuscule balls to the gears or whatever creates mechanical force, not a linear presentation.
(y) From reading lots of the conversations about these light weight oils many of us lost our minds about at first I have come to a conclusion. I do not think the thin oils are really as bad as we want to believe. I was thinking about it and looking at my 2009 Accord.
I been using 5w20 motor oil in that one since brand new. Not one engine issue what so ever. The car looks and drives like a new car still to this day. It is approaching 200,000mi soon. This car is NOT one of the GDI engines. I do realize with cars that sometimes folks catch a lemon (maybe built on a Friday evening or a Monday morning!) and many of us get lucky and get a good one that will last IF one takes the time and follows up on all of the predictive preventive maintenance items that are called for. Not rocket science like some try to make it out. Not a pain either. Just part of owning a high cost item we need to be reliable. So, the point I think I have discovered (please correct and explain if I am thinking wrong here?) is I do not think my GDI-T engine is shearing the oil in the wife's car. It is certainly doing something that is not great.... putting fuel into the tiny sump. STILL I feel those thin oils have been around long enough and are proven acceptable. I feel even with the fuel in the oil if one does the proper and shorter oci, one can even make one of those engines last. Am I wrong about the oil not being sheard but just thinned out ? Diluted.
I TRY. Do my best. My 16 year old Accord still kicking..... using 5w20 Amsoil since day one and doing 5000 to 7000mi oci.
IMG_0063 - Copy.webp
 
(y) From reading lots of the conversations about these light weight oils many of us lost our minds about at first I have come to a conclusion. I do not think the thin oils are really as bad as we want to believe. I was thinking about it and looking at my 2009 Accord.
I been using 5w20 motor oil in that one since brand new. Not one engine issue what so ever. The car looks and drives like a new car still to this day. It is approaching 200,000mi soon. This car is NOT one of the GDI engines. I do realize with cars that sometimes folks catch a lemon (maybe built on a Friday evening or a Monday morning!) and many of us get lucky and get a good one that will last IF one takes the time and follows up on all of the predictive preventive maintenance items that are called for. Not rocket science like some try to make it out. Not a pain either. Just part of owning a high cost item we need to be reliable. So, the point I think I have discovered (please correct and explain if I am thinking wrong here?) is I do not think my GDI-T engine is shearing the oil in the wife's car. It is certainly doing something that is not great.... putting fuel into the tiny sump. STILL I feel those thin oils have been around long enough and are proven acceptable. I feel even with the fuel in the oil if one does the proper and shorter oci, one can even make one of those engines last. Am I wrong about the oil not being sheard but just thinned out ? Diluted.
I TRY. Do my best. My 16 year old Accord still kicking..... using 5w20 Amsoil since day one and doing 5000 to 7000mi oci. View attachment 306390
Very nice! Could you take a pic in the oil fill hole? I’m interested how Amsoil from day one looks!
 
(y) From reading lots of the conversations about these light weight oils many of us lost our minds about at first I have come to a conclusion. I do not think the thin oils are really as bad as we want to believe. I was thinking about it and looking at my 2009 Accord.
I been using 5w20 motor oil in that one since brand new. Not one engine issue what so ever. The car looks and drives like a new car still to this day. It is approaching 200,000mi soon. This car is NOT one of the GDI engines. I do realize with cars that sometimes folks catch a lemon (maybe built on a Friday evening or a Monday morning!) and many of us get lucky and get a good one that will last IF one takes the time and follows up on all of the predictive preventive maintenance items that are called for. Not rocket science like some try to make it out. Not a pain either. Just part of owning a high cost item we need to be reliable. So, the point I think I have discovered (please correct and explain if I am thinking wrong here?) is I do not think my GDI-T engine is shearing the oil in the wife's car. It is certainly doing something that is not great.... putting fuel into the tiny sump. STILL I feel those thin oils have been around long enough and are proven acceptable. I feel even with the fuel in the oil if one does the proper and shorter oci, one can even make one of those engines last. Am I wrong about the oil not being sheard but just thinned out ? Diluted.
I TRY. Do my best. My 16 year old Accord still kicking..... using 5w20 Amsoil since day one and doing 5000 to 7000mi oci. View attachment 306390
Sure, all of which is fine if your one goal is a slightly reduced fuel consumption. Otherwise there’s no disadvantage to oils with increased HT/HS, and you do reduce wear a bit - plus with my Tiguan and the fuel dilution I chose to not use a 20-grade.

Would it be “fine” on 508 00 oil? Probably, but I do keep my vehicles for a long time and that factors into my preference. Besides a tiny increase in fuel consumption there’s no downside to a thicker oil in a vehicle.
 
Sure, all of which is fine if your one goal is a slightly reduced fuel consumption. Otherwise there’s no disadvantage to oils with increased HT/HS, and you do reduce wear a bit - plus with my Tiguan and the fuel dilution I chose to not use a 20-grade.

Would it be “fine” on 508 00 oil? Probably, but I do keep my vehicles for a long time and that factors into my preference. Besides a tiny increase in fuel consumption there’s no downside to a thicker oil in a vehicle.
(y) Oh yeah. Totally with you on the thin and certain applications. I do use a mix (I know silly) in the wife's GDI-Turbo. I use 2qt of 0w20 + 2qt of 0w30. I make myself change that one out every 3200 to 3500mi. Mostly on the lower side. My OCD usually has me watching those miles like I can not wait to change it. :ROFLMAO:
 
I always appreciate your inputs.
Thank you.
Quite honestly to me it seems like patato potato here. I think your comment also argues that shell pioneered GTL.
How do you pioneer something that was developed and used (extensively) >60 years prior? What Shell did was twofold:
1. Invest in developing and refining FT processes that would yield specific desirable and marketable products (this was done decades before they built Pearl)
2. invest in a facility large enough to produce these things at a scale that made them economically viable. The caveat of course was that due to the huge capital investment in the facility, they couldn't really horde the product, which is why competitors are able to purchase and cost-effectively utilize these items in their own products.

As I said, Mobil was going down the same path (I've posted about it years ago on the forum, it's hard to find data on it now), and had invested billions in their own FT plant that would produce base oils, but the cost got so high that they eventually just cut their losses and walked away.
But i guess you are focusing on the science aspect. Lets add a nuance there: Shell pioneered its modern large-scale commercialization for lubricant-grade base oils. They turned a chemistry concept into a globally viable industrial process.
But it wasn't a chemistry concept, it's a well understood process (Fischer-Tropsch) with a history of successful utilization (see link above). But only two companies were willing to invest not only in the IP, over many years, but also the billions in capital necessary to construct a facility large enough to make these products economically competitive with conventional offerings, offerings that don't require the same scale of investment.

However, one of those companies (Mobil) eventually cut their losses, while Shell, similar to Southern Company in Georgia with Vogtle, decided to keep pouring the money on to get it to a state of completion, and that's how we ended up with the Pearl facility.

Also of note, Pearl isn't Shell's first GTL plant. They have one in Malaysia that came online in 1993, but to give you an idea of scale, according to Shell, this facility produces 14,700 barrels per day of liquid and solid hydrocarbons. Pearl produces 260,000 barrels per day. Shell spent something like 20 years refining their FT process (and have a huge list of patents to show for it) in the lead-up to the commissioning of the Bintulu facility in Malaysia, and it wasn't until over a decade later that they invested further in the technology, and scale necessary, at Pearl, for their GTL offerings to become significant, and this is when the rest of us started to hear about it as if it was new and exciting ;)



Saying Shell "pioneered" GTL is a lot like saying Tesla "pioneered" the EV, a technology that goes back over a century and had various kicks at commercialization during that period, long before Tesla as a company existed, including more recently GM's EV1. Though GTL commercialization (see link) had significantly more in the way of, and scale of, successes relative to EV commercialization over that period, primarily due to recent advances in battery chemistry, with which there is no parallel in the FT space.
 
Thank you.

How do you pioneer something that was developed and used (extensively) >60 years prior? What Shell did was twofold:
1. Invest in developing and refining FT processes that would yield specific desirable and marketable products (this was done decades before they built Pearl)
2. invest in a facility large enough to produce these things at a scale that made them economically viable. The caveat of course was that due to the huge capital investment in the facility, they couldn't really horde the product, which is why competitors are able to purchase and cost-effectively utilize these items in their own products.

As I said, Mobil was going down the same path (I've posted about it years ago on the forum, it's hard to find data on it now), and had invested billions in their own FT plant that would produce base oils, but the cost got so high that they eventually just cut their losses and walked away.

But it wasn't a chemistry concept, it's a well understood process (Fischer-Tropsch) with a history of successful utilization (see link above). But only two companies were willing to invest not only in the IP, over many years, but also the billions in capital necessary to construct a facility large enough to make these products economically competitive with conventional offerings, offerings that don't require the same scale of investment.

However, one of those companies (Mobil) eventually cut their losses, while Shell, similar to Southern Company in Georgia with Vogtle, decided to keep pouring the money on to get it to a state of completion, and that's how we ended up with the Pearl facility.

Also of note, Pearl isn't Shell's first GTL plant. They have one in Malaysia that came online in 1993, but to give you an idea of scale, according to Shell, this facility produces 14,700 barrels per day of liquid and solid hydrocarbons. Pearl produces 260,000 barrels per day. Shell spent something like 20 years refining their FT process (and have a huge list of patents to show for it) in the lead-up to the commissioning of the Bintulu facility in Malaysia, and it wasn't until over a decade later that they invested further in the technology, and scale necessary, at Pearl, for their GTL offerings to become significant, and this is when the rest of us started to hear about it as if it was new and exciting ;)



Saying Shell "pioneered" GTL is a lot like saying Tesla "pioneered" the EV, a technology that goes back over a century and had various kicks at commercialization during that period, long before Tesla as a company existed, including more recently GM's EV1. Though GTL commercialization (see link) had significantly more in the way of, and scale of, successes relative to EV commercialization over that period, primarily due to recent advances in battery chemistry, with which there is no parallel in the FT space.
Plus Shell was flush with stranded gas that would otherwise be flared.
 
So buying GTL from Shell is cheaper than the PAO that they have complete control over the supply chain for? (Honest question to clarify -- not trying to spar here.)
Actually ExxonMobil stated a while back that their biggest problem with PAO was supply. Whether that’s still true I don’t know.
 
(y) From reading lots of the conversations about these light weight oils many of us lost our minds about at first I have come to a conclusion. I do not think the thin oils are really as bad as we want to believe. I was thinking about it and looking at my 2009 Accord.
I been using 5w20 motor oil in that one since brand new. Not one engine issue what so ever. The car looks and drives like a new car still to this day. It is approaching 200,000mi soon. This car is NOT one of the GDI engines. I do realize with cars that sometimes folks catch a lemon (maybe built on a Friday evening or a Monday morning!) and many of us get lucky and get a good one that will last IF one takes the time and follows up on all of the predictive preventive maintenance items that are called for. Not rocket science like some try to make it out. Not a pain either. Just part of owning a high cost item we need to be reliable. So, the point I think I have discovered (please correct and explain if I am thinking wrong here?) is I do not think my GDI-T engine is shearing the oil in the wife's car. It is certainly doing something that is not great.... putting fuel into the tiny sump. STILL I feel those thin oils have been around long enough and are proven acceptable. I feel even with the fuel in the oil if one does the proper and shorter oci, one can even make one of those engines last. Am I wrong about the oil not being sheard but just thinned out ? Diluted.
I TRY. Do my best. My 16 year old Accord still kicking..... using 5w20 Amsoil since day one and doing 5000 to 7000mi oci. View attachment 306390
I've seen multiple used oil analysis here where Amsoil retains its viscosity far better than Mobil 1 in fuel diluting monsters. I assume there is some viscosity loss from the fuel dilution which is just physics from mixing higher and lower viscosity fluids, but Amsoil's VMs hold up far better so the additional viscosity loss is limited in Amsoil vs Mobil 1 which isn't using as high quality VMs. (That's my hypothesis anyway.)
 
I've seen multiple used oil analysis here where Amsoil retains its viscosity far better than Mobil 1 in fuel diluting monsters. I assume there is some viscosity loss from the fuel dilution which is just physics from mixing higher and lower viscosity fluids, but Amsoil's VMs hold up far better so the additional viscosity loss is limited in Amsoil vs Mobil 1 which isn't using as high quality VMs. (That's my hypothesis anyway.)
Blackstone UOA?
 
I've seen multiple used oil analysis here where Amsoil retains its viscosity far better than Mobil 1 in fuel diluting monsters. I assume there is some viscosity loss from the fuel dilution which is just physics from mixing higher and lower viscosity fluids, but Amsoil's VMs hold up far better so the additional viscosity loss is limited in Amsoil vs Mobil 1 which isn't using as high quality VMs. (That's my hypothesis anyway.)
I've not seen those, but never discount oxidative thickening (which we see with HPL), where in the absence of fuel, the viscosity increases.
 
No, Polaris (Oil Analyzers).

Here is a link.
But there's no VOA for either lube to show virgin viscosity, and fuel on one of them was just listed as ">5%", which is of course very non-specific. And the difference between the two was only 0.5cSt and as I said, we have no idea what they started out as, since we don't have a VOA for either of them.

If we go by PDS, the OE starts out at 8.6 and the SS starts out at 8.8 (but we don't know if that was current at the time of the used oil analysis, nor do we know how far from spec each of those products were). So already our 0.5cSt difference becomes 0.3cSt.

Too many variables here with unknown values to be able to draw any conclusions.

My VOA of the HPL Super Car 0W-40 showed 13.9cSt:

PDS shows 14.38cSt:
1761163727407.webp


Variation from the PDS values aren't uncommon.
 
But there's no VOA for either lube to show virgin viscosity, and fuel on one of them was just listed as ">5%", which is of course very non-specific. And the difference between the two was only 0.5cSt and as I said, we have no idea what they started out as, since we don't have a VOA for either of them.

If we go by PDS, the OE starts out at 8.6 and the SS starts out at 8.8 (but we don't know if that was current at the time of the used oil analysis, nor do we know how far from spec each of those products were). So already our 0.5cSt difference becomes 0.3cSt.

Too many variables here with unknown values to be able to draw any conclusions.

My VOA of the HPL Super Car 0W-40 showed 13.9cSt:

PDS shows 14.38cSt:
View attachment 306435

Variation from the PDS values aren't uncommon.
Thanks. Always appreciate your insight.

I guess what struck me about the UOA is that the AMSOIL Signature Series and OE both stayed in grade (above 6.9 cSt) despite >5% fuel dilution whereas the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy fell out of grade (NB: it was a 30 weight whereas the SS and OE were 20 weight oils) as it was below 9.3 cSt despite less fuel dilution than the Amsoil oils. Additionally, you'll note that the Mobil 1 had about half the miles that the AMSOIL Signature Series had on it, and again it stayed in grade while the Mobil 1 didn't. Those were the things I noticed.
 
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