Surge Protection Device Questions

[kb01]

Originally Posted By: Quest

@kb01:

You do not need ground in order for GFICs to work properly. Case to the point: I've re-rigged (by code) some 50s houses with only 2 prong AC outlets (w/o the 3rd/ground wire to begin with) with GFICs.


I do agree and that's not what I claimed. GFI receptacles and breakers are designed to protect the user, not equipment, and are acceptable according to the NEC for use on ungrounded circuits. It's just a safer work around than the 3-to-2 adapters that anyone with an old house is familiar with.

We've had to go the GFI route in our house for several circuits which are inaccessible or just impractical to run modern NM to.

But ultimately, if there is no ground wire present, it doesn't matter if it's GFI protected or a surge protector is plugged in, equipment will still be susceptible to any fluctuations on the circuit. It's been my experience that modern electronics are surprisingly robust in this regards.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Quest
... trust the good ole faithful instead: (gas discharge tube) (known to HAM folks since the dawn of ham, ...


A neon bulb would work as well and, iirc, that was the discharge protection in a lot of radios. This type of protection is suitable for vacuum tube front ends which are not particularly sensitive to transients anyway, but completely unsuited to modern solid state devices.

I've lost everything from automobiles to ham radio equipment to lightning induced transients. Obviously the only real way to protect something is to disconnect it from all antennae, ac lines, phone lines, etc., when a storm is at hand.

I don't worry much about power line surges or transients - it's the poor quality of the ac power the other 99.999999% of the time that concerns me. I keep my TV's and other microprocessor driven stuff that can be sensitive to poorly regulated power lines on voltage regulated UPS's. Everything else that is somewhat sensitive I just put on plain jane UPS's. The rest of the stuff i don't worry about - most consumer electronics these days, including the stuff marketed as surge protection, is junk and if it gets wiped out, good riddance.

A lot of it is just bad luck that not much can protect against anyway. The lightning strike that left a skunk stripe down one of my trees and fried my 2004 GTO did not affect anything else on my property, including my ham radio equipment that was still hooked up to antennae and power lines about fifty feet away.

If you want good quality surge protection devices, PolyPhaser equipment http://www.protectiongroup.com/PolyPhaser is pretty good stuff. There is some other decent stuff out there.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: odie
Tripp Lite make very good surge protectors with noise filtration . We have the ISOTEL 4 and 6 oulet ( http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=825&txtModelID=106 )....


I have one of those four outlet Isotels and have never been able to determine that it did anything useful.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: odie
Tripp Lite make very good surge protectors with noise filtration . We have the ISOTEL 4 and 6 oulet ( http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=825&txtModelID=106 )....


I have one of those four outlet Isotels and have never been able to determine that it did anything useful.


How were you able to determine that the olyPhaser did anything useful?

 

[benjamming]

Originally Posted By: Win
Obviously the only real way to protect something is to disconnect it from all antennae, ac lines, phone lines, etc., when a storm is at hand.


That's not guaranteed to work either is it? Can a nearby lightning bolt not fry electronics whether they are plugged in & powered or not - EMP.

 

[odie]

It's brown outs you need to worry about . Best to turn off surge protectors when this occurs . It ruined an Panasonic v.c.r.. Live and learn .

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: Quest
You do not need ground in order for GFICs to work properly. Case to the point: I've re-rigged (by code) some 50s houses with only 2 prong AC outlets (w/o the 3rd/ground wire to begin with) with GFICs.
Actually in a sense you do need a ground for it to work (at least as I understand or maybe misunderstand it

). If you become the ground, it trips, thereby saving you from serious injury. However, if you don't become a ground, stupid example is to take two nails, one in each hand and jam them into the two prong slots: now you become like the toaster, if you are not grounded, you fry.

 

[Win]

Quote:
How were you able to determine that the olyPhaser did anything useful?


Other than anecdotally, I can't. I use those on the RF lines coming into my office. For surge protection I have been installing these guys:

http://www.tnbpowersolutions.com/currentguard on the panels in my commercial buildings as I build new or remodel.

 

[JHZR2]

So how do those units install exactly? Do the main lines go into that box an then jumpers to the panel? There is one for recessed, which I dont have/need but simplicity of install into existing work would be interesting.

 

[Win]

The current guards I have are the basic model and side mount on the wall beside the sub panel. The conduit from the current guard goes into a knockout on the side of the sub panel.

I haven't watched any of the electricians installing them to see exactly how they connect in the panel, but I presume it gets paralleled with each hot line, neutral, and ground.

edit: just walked over to the equipment room and it is one of the Currentguard 50 compact models that I have on the sub panel here in my office, and it could easily be recessed in a wall if that is what you wanted to do..

 

[JHZR2]

Another question - filters vs regulation vs conditioning.

Even cheap strips seem to give "filtering", some number of dB for some frequency range. I guess it is noise?

But how does this compare to a line conditioner?

I think I get that a voltage regulator will take some range under/over and give you a constant value, without an injection of power or storage buffering like an UPS would provide.

But a conditioner vs filter? Are they the same, just a conditioner having bigger caps/inductors than a power strip? Or are they different still?

 

[sleddriver]

About 15 yrs ago, I installed a UL-listed surge arrestor on my main breaker panel. It has status LED's to indicate when one of the MOV's is toes up. This way, the whole house is protected. You can spend a fortune buying enough of the indoor types to protect everything.

With the exception of a few X10 modules, I've never lost anything to a lightning strike.