Subaru Filters Upside down harmful on Starts?

[Al]

There are those on subaru boards that make sure when they change filters they keep the gas pedal to the floor so vehicle does not start when cranking. I thought and still do that it is a waste3 of time.

Out of curiosity I weighed an empty filter, one that was installed and had run in the vehicle, and a new filter completely full of oil. I was surprised to see that 75% of the oilj remains in the upside down filter. So those that are fanatical...pre fill it, make sure it sits for 10 minutes-keeping it full. Then before installing it pour the oil in the fill pipe.

 

[fantastic]

I thought that's what adbv supposed to do?
Good fill tip

 

[supton]

Some people can reason themselves into untold amounts of hand wringing, oblivious to the results of so many others who don’t do as they do, yet don’t have the issues that are feared.

 

[Sayjac]

..... I was surprised to see that 75% of the oilj remains in the upside down filter. ....

Prepping for c&ps on the OF subforum, as standard practice I'll open a couple inlet holes with Q Tip middles and drain face down in funnel. With rare exception, I'll find a significant amount oil left to drain out the holes. One exception of note was the Gonher made Nissan OEM filter. After I cut it open I saw why. It has an adbv defect which allow it slide down the outlet flange.

I'd say this about the noted Suby filter orientation, 'it would seem' to be more susceptible to a start-up rattle 'if' the adbv was to be compromised. Some larger filters with same filter orientation add a filter stand pipe to further ensure oil stays in the filter.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

There are those on subaru boards that make sure when they change filters they keep the gas pedal to the floor so vehicle does not start when cranking. I thought and still do that it is a waste3 of time.

Out of curiosity I weighed an empty filter, one that was installed and had run in the vehicle, and a new filter completely full of oil. I was surprised to see that 75% of the oilj remains in the upside down filter. So those that are fanatical...pre fill it, make sure it sits for 10 minutes-keeping it full. Then before installing it pour the oil in the fill pipe.

Everytime I change oil on our FB subaru the filter is empty. These engines are noisy as all get out on start up. They start up with a dry filter.
for OC I pre fill the filter about 50% Flip it over and screw it on. No spillage into that retention cup. I don't start in "flood clear mode"

Have not done a change with the Toyo Roki (vs Blue Fram). Cant comment on any improvement in oil retention with the black filters.

Most of our subaru have developed loud knocking within the first year of operation. Even with the EJ so I can't point to the inverted filter. But they soldier on regardless of racket. Haven't kept one past 90K miles though.

- Arco (and AlleyCat on S...F...org) same schlemiel

 

[ARCOgraphite]

@Al which subaru of the three you had the past couple years is this? The BRZ? I lost track.

 

[Al]

@Al which subaru of the three you had the past couple years is this? The BRZ? I lost track.

'19 Crosstrek, 22 Forester and Toyota GR86 (BRZ) in addition to my '18 Forester

Everytime I change oil on our FB subaru the filter is empty. These engines are noisy as all get out on start up.

My 4 upside down subaru engines I had/have no startup noise.

 

[Glenda W.]

All my c&p’s from my Subaru filters are full of oil. All OG Titaniums and now PG made filters. No start up noise.

I have also heard on the Subaru forums people complaining about empty filters. My guess is they run OEM as they are pushed hard over there.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

All my c&p’s from my Subaru filters are full of oil. All OG Titaniums and now PG made filters. No start up noise.

I have also heard on the Subaru forums people complaining about empty filters. My guess is they run OEM as they are pushed hard over there.

Interesting.
Do you run the engine and warm up the oil before you dump it? Are you running 0W20?

When I say "empty" that would be maybe 80% empty. I Might have to get the wife's kitchen scale out next time and weigh for all three conditions: new, just removed-used, and pre-filled 75%.

I'd like to see the Tokyo Roki holding smoil overnight.

- Cheers! Arco.

 

[KevinMalone]

There are those on subaru boards that make sure when they change filters they keep the gas pedal to the floor so vehicle does not start when cranking. I thought and still do that it is a waste3 of time.

Fear and paranoia from lack of understanding. Thanks for doing an actual test to verify

 

[twX]

On my FA20DIT, I've measured the time it takes for the oil light to turn off after the engine fires in various cold start conditions.

If the engine sits for a day before being started, it can take almost 1 second and up to 20 engine revolutions for the oil light to turn off, and this doesn't happen before the engine hits 1700+ rpm. If the engine sits for <20 minutes, the light will turn off while the engine is still cranking.

After my last oil filter change, it only took only 0.2 seconds and 2.3 engine revolutions for the light to shut off, when the engine was started only 30 minutes after having been shut off, and with the oil still fairly warm.

In other words, quite a lot of oil seems to drain out of the system when the engine hasn't been run for hours, and it seems to be a greater volume than just what the filter can hold. There's no reason to treat a filter change any differently than a normal start. Change the oil filter and start the engine while it's still warm, and oil pressure will build more quickly than it does on a regular cold start.

 

[wsar10]

Everytime I change oil on our FB subaru the filter is empty. These engines are noisy as all get out on start up. They start up with a dry filter.
for OC I pre fill the filter about 50% Flip it over and screw it on. No spillage into that retention cup. I don't start in "flood clear mode"

Have not done a change with the Toyo Roki (vs Blue Fram). Cant comment on any improvement in oil retention with the black filters.

Most of our subaru have developed loud knocking within the first year of operation. Even with the EJ so I can't point to the inverted filter. But they soldier on regardless of racket. Haven't kept one past 90K miles though.

- Arco (and AlleyCat on S...F...org) same schlemiel

I really would not consider soldering on as 90k mi... A Suby engine should do that without ANY oil changes ever!

 

[Glenda W.]

Interesting.
Do you run the engine and warm up the oil before you dump it? Are you running 0W20?

When I say "empty" that would be maybe 80% empty. I Might have to get the wife's kitchen scale out next time and weigh for all three conditions: new, just removed-used, and pre-filled 75%.

I'd like to see the Tokyo Roki holding smoil overnight.

- Cheers! Arco.

I use 30 grade oils and sometimes dump cold and other times hot. I’m curious on the Tokyo Roki as well. I also wonder if the silicon adbv seals better?

 

[Al]

, it only took only 0.2 seconds and 2.3 engine revolutions for the light to shut off,

How did you determine that?

 

[twX]

How did you determine that?

I took a video of the tach and the oil light, and counted the number frames between the first tach movement and when the oil light shut off. I also datalogged engine rpm to help calculate the number of revolutions.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I really would not consider soldering on as 90k mi... A Suby engine should do that without ANY oil changes ever!

???

 

[mt23]

I installed the Baxter Anti Drain valve on my 2018 Forester FB25 which has a chain tensioner noise on startup since new. The pretensioner adjustment is likely not correct so it rattles until it has oil pressure. The baxter valve has reduced the startup rattle duration by at least half. So it went from rattling 3 to 4 seconds on startup to probably 1 or 2 seconds at the most.

https://www.baxterperformanceusa.co...69J0igFDF9WYU5qG3whL6a0k64tcVtkOUtOvzY2mLeLM0

 

[Al]

I took a video of the tach and the oil light, and counted the number frames between the first tach movement and when the oil light shut off. I also datalogged engine rpm to help calculate the number of revolutions.

Neat

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I installed the Baxter Anti Drain valve on my 2018 Forester FB25 which has a chain tensioner noise on startup since new. The pretensioner adjustment is likely not correct so it rattles until it has oil pressure. The baxter valve has reduced the startup rattle duration by at least half. So it went from rattling 3 to 4 seconds on startup to probably 1 or 2 seconds at the most.

https://www.baxterperformanceusa.co...69J0igFDF9WYU5qG3whL6a0k64tcVtkOUtOvzY2mLeLM0

Seems like a nice part, but there’s no proof it’s doing anything significantly beneficial, especially for $260. Now, these are not directed AT you, but at the marketing and hysteria that creates these parts. BTW, what happens if that pressure relief valve is opened or fails while the engine is running? Does it become a wellhead, shooting hot oil all over the engine and wiring? Will its superfluous adbv save your engine if that occurs? Will Baxter warranty your engine for a failure, because Subaru likely won’t. These aren’t attacks at you, but questions to ask yourself.

Also, note their top review of the part:

Until reading the gibberish of a bunch of people who are not mechanical engineers, the owner didn’t even notice this alleged “Death Rattle”. But after reading forums that regurgitate bad info, HE COULD SUDDENLY HEAR IT IN HIS ENGINE! Nothing like fearmongering to facilitate confirmation bias, eh? Have to wonder if some of those “death rattle” proprietors were being paid by someone…

Yes, Subaru had some issues on the first year FB25 manual for oil consumption. Yes, there have been some failures by people beating the snot out of their BRZs who haven’t installed a modified oil pan to keep the pickup submerged during racetrack cornering. Every marque has some blunders, and some are not the fault of the company. The hard fact is, over 96% of all FA/FB powered cars sold over the past decade are still on the road.

With that being said, my opinion is that Baxter has created a solution looking for a problem, marketed it by playing to new vehicle owner fears, and will happily collect your $260 for what certainly amounts to less than $50 of materials, including anodizing.

You’ll notice the difference in your wallet but not the lifespan of your engine. Use the $260 to buy better oil and/or change it more frequently. Even at a ~$25 price increase per oil change, running HPL for a mere 10k vs a quick lube means you’d get roughly 100k miles of HPL protection vs quick change oil & the Baxter adapter. Easy call there.

 

[mt23]

Seems like a nice part, but there’s no proof it’s doing anything significantly beneficial, especially for $260. Now, these are not directed AT you, but at the marketing and hysteria that creates these parts. BTW, what happens if that pressure relief valve is opened or fails while the engine is running? Does it become a wellhead, shooting hot oil all over the engine and wiring? Will its superfluous adbv save your engine if that occurs? Will Baxter warranty your engine for a failure, because Subaru likely won’t. These aren’t attacks at you, but questions to ask yourself.

Also, note their top review of the part:
View attachment 262203
Until reading the gibberish of a bunch of people who are not mechanical engineers, the owner didn’t even notice this alleged “Death Rattle”. But after reading forums that regurgitate bad info, HE COULD SUDDENLY HEAR IT IN HIS ENGINE! Nothing like fearmongering to facilitate confirmation bias, eh? Have to wonder if some of those “death rattle” proprietors were being paid by someone…

Yes, Subaru had some issues on the first year FB25 manual for oil consumption. Yes, there have been some failures by people beating the snot out of their BRZs who haven’t installed a modified oil pan to keep the pickup submerged during racetrack cornering. Every marque has some blunders, and some are not the fault of the company. The hard fact is, over 96% of all FA/FB powered cars sold over the past decade are still on the road.

With that being said, my opinion is that Baxter has created a solution looking for a problem, marketed it by playing to new vehicle owner fears, and will happily collect your $260 for what certainly amounts to less than $50 of materials, including anodizing.

You’ll notice the difference in your wallet but not the lifespan of your engine. Use the $260 to buy better oil and/or change it more frequently. Even at a ~$25 price increase per oil change, running HPL for a mere 10k vs a quick lube means you’d get roughly 100k miles of HPL protection vs quick change oil & the Baxter adapter. Easy call there.

Whatever the demise of this engine is, I will be sure to let the board know. When it fails I will rebuild if possible or replace it. This is my forever car. In the mean time I am enjoying the oversize oil filter options, and shorter chain tensioner rattle on startup the Baxter valve is bringing. All with HPL in the sump for the last 78,000 miles.