Study defends green credentials of EV's

[SonofJoe]

I was curious as you how me, and my little car, would compare against some of the figures quoted in this report.

Now that the engine's loosening up a bit, my 1.0L Suzuki is averaging 72.0 mpg (60 miles per USG). Right now, petrol's costing me £1.13/litre ($US 5.52 per USG). So on average it's costing me about 7.06p/mile (¢US 9.11/mile) which isn't that far away from the average figure for ICEs in the report.

However, in the US, according to Wikipedia, the average combined federal plus state tax on gasoline is ¢50/USG (10.2p/litre). In the UK, the combined VAT plus fuel duty accounts for 78p/litre. If US tax rates applied in the UK, I would be paying just 47p/litre ($US 2.29 per USG) for gasoline. In which case I would be paying just 2.94p/mile (¢3.8/mile).

In which case I'm on a par with the cited cost of a Battery Electric Vehicle. So I'm going to stick with my little Suki and pass on those re-volt-ing EVs!

 

[SeaJay]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
I agree CT8. When a certain individual starts flying commercial instead of their private jet, sells a ten thousand square foot home and lives in a 1200 square foot living space then I will believe what that person promotes.
It would be like PTL preachers telling everyone else how to live while having fun with escorts and drinking a case of beer a day... Live out what you say you believe. Be real and serious about it.


Well said! - you hit the nail on the head on why I discount anything those limosine riding preachers are trying to sell.

The former grand salami of that preacher movement (Gore) lived like that flying around in a private jet and living in a mansion burning who knows how much energy. His princess preacher (Steistand) at one point in time kept up a half dozen or so large residences in the warmer areas of the country. Her orders to her staff was to keep the A/C running strong 24/7 just in case she wanted to stop in unannounced. It would not be acceptable for her to wait a few hours to cool the place down no matter the cost to this green movement.

Do as I say, not how I do is their motto.

 

[Trav]

Every time some cities have a few days of hot weather they have brown outs and rolling blackouts, here in the NE they cant keep the friggin lights on if it snows and they expect to charge millions of EV when people cant even run their A/C or keep their furnaces running.
I was thinking about what it would be like if we had another power outage that lasted for weeks like the one a few years ago if everyone had to charge their EV. As long as the US has a third world power distribution system (telephone poles are third world) mass EV use is not happening.

 

[Coprolite]

SonofJoe,

If you just want to compare MPG and not emissions, that is pretty easily done. At fueleconomy.gov all are laid out in equivalent form. It even allows you to adjust the costs of the fuel as you wish and gives an example cost of one trip.

The Tesla S gets around 98 MPGe and the Chevy Bolt is over 100. You would beat out a Prius, but that is a tough call. If you drove a Prius in your style, it would change the mpg so it might tie or even widen the gap.


There are some advantages of an EV. They should be less maintenance and longer lasting, with current batteries far exceeding their originally planned lifespans. Concentrating the environmental harm at the factory and at the power generation station makes controlling the impact much easier. It is easier and cheaper to retrofit a power plant than it is to retrofit every single car that is out there. Enforcing compliance is also easier. How many catless downpipes and "for offroad use only" parts are available and installed? Even emissions tests in many US jurisdictions rely on a simple OBDII readout.

If an EV is more economical when it comes time to replace the Civic, I will consider one. Currently, the Bolt 0-60 time alone will crush the performance of the Civic and with my electricity at just over $0.08/kwh, the running costs would be minute. The biggest barrier is the cost of the new vehicle vs one that is paid for. The cheapest car is the one you already own.

If the electricity from solar panels is ever cheaper than from the grid, I will also sign up - even if the cost is upfront for the system with pursuant "free" energy.


Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I was curious as you how me, and my little car, would compare against some of the figures quoted in this report.

Now that the engine's loosening up a bit, my 1.0L Suzuki is averaging 72.0 mpg (60 miles per USG). Right now, petrol's costing me £1.13/litre ($US 5.52 per USG). So on average it's costing me about 7.06p/mile (¢US 9.11/mile) which isn't that far away from the average figure for ICEs in the report.

However, in the US, according to Wikipedia, the average combined federal plus state tax on gasoline is ¢50/USG (10.2p/litre). In the UK, the combined VAT plus fuel duty accounts for 78p/litre. If US tax rates applied in the UK, I would be paying just 47p/litre ($US 2.29 per USG) for gasoline. In which case I would be paying just 2.94p/mile (¢3.8/mile).

In which case I'm on a par with the cited cost of a Battery Electric Vehicle. So I'm going to stick with my little Suki and pass on those re-volt-ing EVs!

 

[Shannow]

How much energy can you harvest from your panels in a 24 hour period ?

Is your car parked under them at the time that the sun is shining, or do you need an intermediate storage while you are at work ?

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
There are some advantages of an EV. They should be less maintenance and longer lasting, with current batteries far exceeding their originally planned lifespans.
Less maintenance with an EV by far, yet there are still fluid levels to check (coolant, brake, differential oil) every now and then. No intake manifolds to carbon up, no oil changes, no spark plugs, etc.! What is odd & surprising is that my Ford Focus Electric has a standard 12v battery (why not a DC-DC convertor from the big Li-Ion monster in the back?).

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
Currently, the Bolt 0-60 time alone will crush the performance of the Civic and with my electricity at just over $0.08/kwh, the running costs would be minute. The biggest barrier is the cost of the new vehicle vs one that is paid for. The cheapest car is the one you already own.

The thing with the Bolt, and most EV's, is the sudden torque onset right off the line. Very darty, peppy, fast, right off the line. The Bolt's 0-60 mph is 6.3 seconds, comparable to a Focus ST or Golf GTI, definitely in Hot Hatch territory. And EV's are Bentley smooth, just rotary turbine-like motion.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
How much energy can you harvest from your panels in a 24 hour period ?

An EV can get a whopping 0.8 miles of range added per square meter of solar panel in full sunlight per hour.

 

[Coprolite]

I don't have any at the moment. I would lean towards an on grid system with a battery. The battery would enable off grid use for when power is out for extended times that usually accompany hurricanes. It would also allow to minimize amount of power taken from the grid at higher rates. The panels are a side note as they would fit into the holistic plan to be energy independent at the household level. The amount harvested would depend on size specified for the house. As I plan to replace my conventional HVAC with geothermal first, I can't guess how much spare capacity could be dedicated to car charging.

I would be able to rotate the use of the car and charge directly on a sunny day while enjoying the use of one of my ICE cars for the day. I currently enjoy rotating the use of my cars and see no reason to stop. My commute is long enough that I would have to charge more than once a week and charging overnight would be an option. In any case, this won't be an issue for the next few years. I am waiting for the economics to work out, both on supply side and on my part.

I would like to have a Bolt on the performance side, as it wouldn't be as maddeningly slow when compare to the BMW. Perhaps there will be a better solution when I am ready to test that market.

On a different note, the spec on solar panels increasing miles on the EV are for the ones built into the cars...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
How much energy can you harvest from your panels in a 24 hour period ?

Is your car parked under them at the time that the sun is shining, or do you need an intermediate storage while you are at work ?

 

[supton]

Yeah, I have no plans to do solar panels up here; panel on the car might be nice for solar venting, not sure it'd be good for much more than that.

It's not cost effective for me (TCO or cost/mile) but I think Tesla is boasting 238mile range? 170 in winter, with the heat on? 170 would get me roundtrip on my commute, with miles to spare. Waiting to see how used EV's turn out on the used market.

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
What is odd & surprising is that my Ford Focus Electric has a standard 12v battery (why not a DC-DC convertor from the big Li-Ion monster in the back?).


That is kinda odd. I wonder if it's to deal with surge load from the ABS? I suspect a lot of 12V stuff is reused (rather than redesigned into say 42V); and I wonder if the battery is required for its ability to deal with high peak loads. Although I'm not sure what else would have sudden high load, outside of ABS.

 

[jeepman3071]

I'm curious why biodiesel hasn't really gone any further. Take a technology that already exists (diesel engines) use a fuel source we have already available (vegetable oil) and run it. I'm sure the processing plants to create it would be less troublesome than all those DPF and SCR garbage on newer diesel trucks.

There was a biodiesel bus that ran at UConn for a number of years. You could smell french fries as it passed by.

I also had a professor with a biodiesel VW TDi.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: supton
Waiting to see how used EV's turn out on the used market.
$10k will get you a 3-year old, 30k mile Nissan Leaf or Ford Focus EV, no Federal subsidies though.

After you mentioned the used EV market, it occurred to me I don't know what happens to all those Teslas that are lease returns! I've never heard of anybody buying a used Tesla. (Leafs and Focus EVs, yes.) Anybody know if used Teslas are a good deal?

Edit: Looks like the oldest used Tesla Model S goes for about $38k used. Sound right? Still steep.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm curious why biodiesel hasn't really gone any further. Take a technology that already exists (diesel engines) use a fuel source we have already available (vegetable oil) and run it. I'm sure the processing plants to create it would be less troublesome than all those DPF and SCR garbage on newer diesel trucks.

There was a biodiesel bus that ran at UConn for a number of years. You could smell french fries as it passed by.

I also had a professor with a biodiesel VW TDi.


Couple of things I think: bio did alter emissions, slightly higher... NOx? Forget now. It was not large but it was measurable. There was also issues with getting quality bio, and also bio gelled at a higher temperature. Lastly, getting a decent amount of oil per acre.

It was a bummer. Part of why I bought my TDi was to use B20--I thought it was a good move forward, to start supporting at least partially renewable fuels. Didn't pan out, it seems.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: supton
Waiting to see how used EV's turn out on the used market.
$10k will get you a 3-year old, 30k mile Nissan Leaf or Ford Focus EV, no Federal subsidies though.

After you mentioned the used EV market, it occurred to me I don't know what happens to all those Teslas that are lease returns! I've never heard of anybody buying a used Tesla. (Leafs and Focus EVs, yes.) Anybody know if used Teslas are a good deal?

Edit: Looks like the oldest used Tesla Model S goes for about $38k used. Sound right? Still steep.


At $10k I might look into, next time, although I'd need to have a charging station at work, as those don't have enough range. Just barely enough means it's a spring/fall car, to me (heat or ac would cut into range).

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm curious why biodiesel hasn't really gone any further. Take a technology that already exists (diesel engines) use a fuel source we have already available (vegetable oil) and run it. I'm sure the processing plants to create it would be less troublesome than all those DPF and SCR garbage on newer diesel trucks.

There was a biodiesel bus that ran at UConn for a number of years. You could smell french fries as it passed by.

I also had a professor with a biodiesel VW TDi.


Couple of things I think: bio did alter emissions, slightly higher... NOx? Forget now. It was not large but it was measurable. There was also issues with getting quality bio, and also bio gelled at a higher temperature. Lastly, getting a decent amount of oil per acre.

It was a bummer. Part of why I bought my TDi was to use B20--I thought it was a good move forward, to start supporting at least partially renewable fuels. Didn't pan out, it seems.


Good points. My professor actually showed the class his process. He had some kind of machine at his farm that converted/filtered everything to usable fuel. He had separate tanks for bio and regular fuel. He would start on regular then switch to bio. He had some sort of heated tank in the trunk for winter or just ran regular diesel in winter.

 

[SonofJoe]

As most of you know, I am openly and proudly 'green'. So it may seem strange that I am against EVs and hybrids. Well here's my UK perspective which may or may not translate to your country...

The UK runs a very tight electricity grid system. Most of our coal fired stations have been shutdown. Our last nuclear station came on line in 1995. We've built a lot of gas combined cycle stations and turbines and we also import electricity from France. However there are times of peak demard when the capacity margin is miniscule (I seem to recall a number of 2 to 3%) at which point we pay heavy industrial energy users to idle plant. We are supposed to be building two new nuclear plants, paid for by the French & the Chinese, but this is fraught with problems. I suspect these may never happen. Given this scenario I could never buy an EV. Relative to keeping the lights on, EVs are an indulgence for the shamelessly selfish.

You can buy a small EV like the Renault Zoe, install a home charging point, and as long as you don't drive long distances (especially at night, when it's cold, carrying passengers) the cost per mile can be better than my little car. However there's a problem. My gasoline is heavily taxed. I don't object to this because that tax pays for a lot of stuff I wholeheartedly approve of. However the only tax on domestic power is 5% VAT. EV users pay bugger all in tax. In fact they get a Government grant to buy the EV in the first place, so they are net parasites on the tax system! If EV power was taxed at the same rate as gasoline, no-one would drive these things because they would be so uneconomic.

Finally, as an engineer, the complexity and shear amount of 'stuff' you need to make a realistic EV or hybrid bothers me. It's not just the costly and not particularly green-to-manufacture batteries, it's the regenerative braking systems, it's the 'range extender' you need to drive any distance, it's the wildly complex transmission systems that you need to marry up all the various sources of power and it's the weight of all this stuff you have to cart around in the name of saving fuel and reducing emissions.

I much prefer my approach to saving the planet. Small cars that are very simple, very light, built-to-fit not built-to-impress, engineered for efficiency, which you drive sensibly, with a gentle left foot. It hasn't cottoned yet but I live in hope...

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Finally, as an engineer, the complexity and shear amount of 'stuff' you need to make a realistic EV or hybrid bothers me. It's not just the costly and not particularly green-to-manufacture batteries, it's the regenerative braking systems, it's the 'range extender' you need to drive any distance, it's the wildly complex transmission systems that you need to marry up all the various sources of power and it's the weight of all this stuff you have to cart around in the name of saving fuel and reducing emissions.



I'm not sure what is complex in an EV. Code, perhaps. But hardware? ICE has more parts, and in the engine alone. Battery, convertor, motor, differential.

Hybrids can be more complex than conventional, with more parts. However, Prius does have a battery pack, and electric motor; but no transmission. [I believe they got rid of even the serpentine belt!] Regeneration is done by the electric motor, so no additional parts there.

Edit: I do understand the point about taxes. I agree, but I also understand why legislators aren't (properly) taxing: so as to encourage the usage, so as to cut down on GHG.

I haven't had a chance to read the article but it does make it sound like, wheel to wheels, less energy is used in EV. Even if we have to bring more power plants online, burning oil--it'd still be a net gain (net downturn in oil usage). If the article is correct, that is.

 

[Coprolite]

While off topic, I must say that the US needs to increase the gas tax. I pay big money in tolls each day to pay for infrastructure that should be covered by taxes. I also want to feel safe driving over any bridge in the US.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Coprolite
While off topic, I must say that the US needs to increase the gas tax. I pay big money in tolls each day to pay for infrastructure that should be covered by taxes. I also want to feel safe driving over any bridge in the US.


I don't think it is a matter of increasing the gas tax, it is using the toll money appropriately.

In CT we don't have tolls, so we get federal money from the government for infrastructure work. Well, the governor spent all of it on other things, so he looked into putting tolls in CT to support the road problems. The Feds said if you put tolls in, then we need our money back. He already spent the money so we have no tolls and no infrastructure money.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
While off topic, I must say that the US needs to increase the gas tax. I pay big money in tolls each day to pay for infrastructure that should be covered by taxes. I also want to feel safe driving over any bridge in the US.


I don't think it is a matter of increasing the gas tax, it is using the toll money appropriately.

In CT we don't have tolls, so we get federal money from the government for infrastructure work. Well, the governor spent all of it on other things, so he looked into putting tolls in CT to support the road problems. The Feds said if you put tolls in, then we need our money back. He already spent the money so we have no tolls and no infrastructure money.


Could do what NH did. On I93 in Hooksett there is a toll. I guess for 100 yards it isn't I93 but something else.

Tolls make sense, for point of use; but I have looked a few times of circumnavigating them to save a buck. But that puts a load onto side roads. No good answer IMO.

 

[Coprolite]

I must say that the toll roads here are pretty good and change your tire for free if you get a flat. It is all the other roads around here and in the US that need to be fixed.