Starting To Think This Is All

[OldCowboy]

I've noticed some people have questioned the accuracy of some oil analysis labs. However, Polaris Labs is one of those which is considered accurate and much is made about their ISO 17025 A2LA accreditation. So, recently I registered my 2011 Ford Fusion with them, including the fact that I planned to use Amsoil Signature 0W-20 oil in this vehicle.

A few days ago, I sent them three samples of oil for virgin oil analysis. The oils were:

- Castrol Edge Titanium 5W-20 SN/GF-5
- Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-20 SM/GF-4
- Amsoil Signature 0W-20 (ASM) SN/GF-5

All three samples were from new, unopened bottles which were shaken well prior to pouring the samples directly into the sample bottles. On the sample submission form, in the space marked "Notes to Analyst", I noted that each sample was virgin oil and the brand and viscosity information.

Today, I received the following report back:

There is so much wrong with this report, I hardly know where to start.

First, the analyst treated all three samples as if they were Amsoil 0w30 in spite of the fact that all three were clearly labeled as 20 weight oils and in spite of the fact that I registered this vehicle as using 20 weight oil.

Treating these oils as 30 weight led the analyst to flag two of them as low viscosity. What's even worse is that the sample with the lowest viscosity was NOT flagged as low viscosity.

The samples were flagged for additive levels different than expected for Amsoil 0W-30, BUT NO ONE THOUGHT TO LOOK AT THE "NOTES TO ANALYST!"

All three samples had significant iron levels. On virgin oil. Really? Really???

All three samples had contamination with silicon and sodium. On virgin oil. Really? Really???

All three samples had between .3 and .4% fuel dilution. On virgin oil. Really? Really???

All three samples had significant levels of oxidation and nitration. On virgin oil. Really? Really???

I'm not even going to try to figure out which sample is which. This report is so bogus that I don't believe any of it.

Needless to say, I'll not be sending any more samples to the Indianapolis Polaris Lab.

 

[chubbs1]

WOW!! This is/was a respected lab. I would be on the phone first thing in the morning.


I have to say I really thank you for what you have done on BITOG!

 

[justinf89]

Did you call them to tell them the mistakes? At least the data is still considered accurate.

 

[johnachak]

Wow, I don't blame you for being angry. I wonder if you can demand a refund. You deserve it.

 

[johnachak]

Originally Posted By: justinf89
Did you call them to tell them the mistakes? At least the data is still considered accurate.



How can fuel dilution in virgin samples be accurate?

 

[Pablo]

Yes it looks like the data entry person could use a little training. All in all, the analysis looks correct and typical. Yes you should be angry about them not ID'ing your sample, but the analysis in no more or no less than a $25 analysis. Allow me to comment on your comments:


Quote:
All three samples had significant iron levels. On virgin oil. Really? Really???


Yes, oil will contain Fe in the virgin state. 11 ppm does seem on the high side, usually in the single digits.

Quote:
All three samples had contamination with silicon and sodium. On virgin oil. Really? Really???


A fact. If anything the Si looks low. It's a defoamer. Na comes in with the additives.

Quote:
All three samples had between .3 and .4% fuel dilution. On virgin oil. Really? Really???


Yeah this is freakish - well not really. Those are baseline levels. It's GC - very hard to get a reading at such low levels.

Quote:
All three samples had significant levels of oxidation and nitration. On virgin oil. Really? Really???


I've posted it a million and one times here. Nit. and Oxi. numbers are meaningless alone. Cool that you now have virgin numbers. Run those oils and see how they change from these numbers.

The Ti oil is easy. Guess the other two.

And for sure, they owe you a complete re-run. Call them in the AM and talk to the supervisor or lab manager. Use the info I posted as knowledge, but for tell them what you are doing and the lab didn't even keep the oils straight. Tell them also that you have publicly posted the info and now is their chance to straighten this out.

 

[ottotheclown]

The only thing we can draw from this is:they owe you a refund and it is obvious they do no drug testig. #3 is easy #2 my guess is Mobil or it should be. You wonder what does it matter??

 

[OldCowboy]

The analyst noted, "Unit and/or lube TIME missing." Hmmm. I wonder why??? Oh, yeah. It was VIRGIN oil.

Also the analyst asked, "Is the lubricant manufacturer, type and/or grade correctly identified for this unit;" Well, in the spreadsheet I returned to Polaris, I clearly noted that the "usual" oil for this unit was Amsoil Signature 0W-20. However, this information was not correctly entered into their database so the analyst thought this should be 0W30.

There are so many fails here, I don't know how I could trust or use anything that comes out of this lab. So I submit a sample from this vehicle with 5000 miles on the oil. The report comes back 12 ppm iron. What do I make of that? Is it really 12 ppm or is that just a number that a dope smoking employee pulled out of their nether regions because they were running behind that day?

 

[pbm]

I feel that the money spent on oil analysis would be better spent on an oil change...

 

[justinf89]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
Originally Posted By: justinf89
Did you call them to tell them the mistakes? At least the data is still considered accurate.



How can fuel dilution in virgin samples be accurate?


haha wow, missed that, yea demand a refund

 

[OldCowboy]

Originally Posted By: pbm
I feel that the money spent on oil analysis would be better spent on an oil change...


This is what I'm starting to think. I'm also starting to think that all of the labs are in the same boat and you're fooling yourself if you're using used oil analysis to extend your drain intervals. I'd love to believe that Amsoil gives me extended protection, but when the lab they use to help you determine your extended drain levels produces results like this, how can you believe it???

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: johnachak
Originally Posted By: justinf89
Did you call them to tell them the mistakes? At least the data is still considered accurate.



How can fuel dilution in virgin samples be accurate?


Please read my post. Anything under 0.5% will not be accurate. That's why most labs just report: "Under 0.5%" when there is no fuel present. I agree the lab screwed up by not segregating and labeling the samples, but so far I've see nothing really that crazy. OP should just have the lab re-run the analysis.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy


This is what I'm starting to think. I'm also starting to think that all of the labs are in the same boat and you're fooling yourself if you're using used oil analysis to extend your drain intervals. I'd love to believe that Amsoil gives me extended protection, but when the lab they use to help you determine your extended drain levels produces results like this, how can you believe it???


Please tell us in detail, what is actually wrong with the measured numbers.

 

[OldCowboy]

Where to start?

OK, how about 11 ppm iron in virgin Amsoil Signature 0W-20 (ASM). Is this correct?

What about oxidation of 36 and nitration of 12 for virgin ASM. Is this correct?

Are the silicone and sodium levels accurate for virgin ASM?

What about the add packs?

And if fuel dilution below 0.5% is so hard to measure, then why not report it as simply
Here's the bottom line: Once you FU one measurement, all the rest are suspect.

 

[Gene K]

As stated by Pablo anything under 0.5% in Fuel dilution is suspect. Thats the reason Blackstone just reports under 0.5% instead of giving you the actual results. Most of Polaris customers are in the commercial end of the industry and have a basic understanding so Polaris just gives you the actual tests numbers and lets you do the interpretation.

Iron in Virgin Oil is normal. However that does look a touch high so have them check calibration and rerun.

#3 looks like Titanium. Im not so sure the calcium is low as I think its being offset with the addition of magnesium.

PS Is Signature actually an API SN/GF5 Oil? Please check the bottle for the API Donut with SN/GF5.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Where to start?

OK, how about 11 ppm iron in virgin Amsoil Signature 0W-20 (ASM). Is this correct?


Probably, plus or minus about 5 ppm. If you were thinking a $25 OA was much more accurate then you probably missed many posts over the years here.

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
What about oxidation of 36 and nitration of 12 for virgin ASM. Is this correct?


They are probably very accurate. But as I stated before, these are relative numbers and only useful when compared to the same oil after use. You didn't really expect these numbers to be zero, did you?

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Are the silicone and sodium levels accurate for virgin ASM?


They looks dead nuts on for all the oils.

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
What about the add packs?


Generally look fine.

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
And if fuel dilution below 0.5% is so hard to measure, then why not report it as simply div>


Not sure why, maybe they assume that people know these levels are of no consequence.

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Here's the bottom line: Once you FU one measurement, all the rest are suspect.


Which measurement is messed up?

 

[OldCowboy]

No donut. Amsoil claims it meets or exceeds SN/GF-5.

 

[OldCowboy]

If their wear metal levels are that inaccurate, then they should report the range. I.e., 11+/- 5.

And, yes, I expect a $25 oil analysis to be accurate. If it's not, what good is it?

 

[ltslimjim]

Quite frankly, I don't care what oils you sent. The results seem to be generally 'within reason'(in the context of expected add pack etc etc) but the entry and communication FAILURE on the part of the analyst was suspect and should warrant compensation by the lab. They told you nothing you couldn't find out already about those oils(aside from perhaps ASM 0w20 "reformulated"), so what value is that when they didn't even organize your samples professionally?

Pablo has some valid points. There is a negligible 'range' that include a percentage of 'error' and trace/marginal ppm within reason regarding metals(at least). That goes with any lab and no one comes out with every UOA/VOA result back to the end-user with how to read it. There is still 'some' value in what you received back, but you must make an effort to get the gist that comes with oil analysis; especially at entry level pricing.

I've never used Polaris, but it seems this individual analyst for this particular lab is making more of an impression(negative as it may be) than the lab itself(unless of course they don't come to a reasonable solution with you; if you reasonably seek out a resolution.)

I don't believe any lab is above reproach or error, because you have people that may/may not come through for one reason or another, while automated systems could have failures occur still and the analyst unwittingly just go with it; through the motions. Most people are guilty of this at some point or another, it's the human side of it. Since you entered a business oriented relationship with the lab, you could choose to approach on the basis of getting your money's worth and see what they are willing to do.

Again, nothing surprising with the numbers "generally speaking". The notes and context in which they were 'attempted' to be placed into was an epic fail.

 

[INDYMAC]

I've never used Polaris Labs, but if these VOA's cost only $25 then I'm impressed. I think the data points illustrated on the reports are more likely very accurate, than inaccurate. The comments should have been caught by a supervisor though. The fuel dilution readings are probably just aromatics organic to base oils or add packs blended into the formulas. They are quite low, so be happy!

Doing these VOA's are a must if you want to seriously consider tuning your vehicle from used oil analysis IMO. But also consider that switching labs may involve having to swag for differences in testing methods. Also, formulas vary from batch to batch.

You are definitely on the right track here!