Start up rattle

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Jul 27, 2021
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2012 Hyundai Santa fe 3.5 v6 with just under 62000 miles.
Bought new in April of 2012, I do my own oil changes every spring with 5w30, and late fall with 5w20, oil is what I find on sale labeled as synthetic, usually Quaker state UD. Filters are Napa gold.

It always had a brief start up rattle after an hour or longer of sitting, but we can tell that the rattle lasts a little longer than when new, but didn't time it before so can't verify for sure how much longer. Doing research it looks like the timing chain/tensioner is a common problem.

Since the 10 year warranty is a few months from ending we thought we'd have dealer check and see if It might be covered. After explaining what's going on, the tech said that the timing chains had issues and Hyundai updated the entire chain and tensioner system including replacing the intake cams, and if not covered under warranty is a $4000 fix.

The dealer requested that they change oil and filter to verify correct filter /oil is in engine and they will record start up rattle and submit to Hyundai.

After having it 2 days and several starts and test's requested by Hyundai, it is determined that the oil pump is bad "taking too long to build pressure" and will be replaced under warranty, and the parts should be here in 2 to 3 weeks. When questioned what we should drive until the parts get here and they said its fine to drive our vehicle until its fixed.

My concern now is how will the engine hold up since it has been operating for who knows how long with a weak oil pump... Or is Hyundai taking the cheap route saying its the oil pump, when its really the chain and hope it makes it past the warranty before it gets worse.

We typically hold on to vehicles for the long term, but after all this, we are wondering if we should start looking for our next vehicle. What do you guys think? TIA
 
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Canada, eh?
My concern now is how will the engine hold up since it has been operating for who knows how long with a weak oil pump... Or is Hyundai taking the cheap route saying its the oil pump, when its really the chain and hope it makes it past the warranty before it gets worse.

We typically hold on to vehicles for the long term, but after all this, we are wondering if we should start looking for our next vehicle. What do you guys think? TIA
It's already made it 9 years...a few more weeks isn't going to be the end of the engine.
Your oil change interval seems to be enough to keep an engine with "weak" oil pump from the scrap yard.

They MAY be taking the easier route, but without addressing the issue earlier, it's kinda hard to say.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is this should have been something you mentioned earlier to the dealership.
 
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i would get issues in writing as i have seen that even thou warranty runs out the prior issue, especially since its a known problem may be covered, good luck!
 
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2012 Hyundai Santa fe 3.5 v6 with just under 62000 miles.
Bought new in April of 2012, I do my own oil changes every spring with 5w30, and late fall with 5w20, oil is what I find on sale labeled as synthetic, usually Quaker state UD. Filters are Napa gold.

It always had a brief start up rattle after an hour or longer of sitting, but we can tell that the rattle lasts a little longer than when new, but didn't time it before so can't verify for sure how much longer. Doing research it looks like the timing chain/tensioner is a common problem.

Since the 10 year warranty is a few months from ending we thought we'd have dealer check and see if It might be covered. After explaining what's going on, the tech said that the timing chains had issues and Hyundai updated the entire chain and tensioner system including replacing the intake cams, and if not covered under warranty is a $4000 fix.

The dealer requested that they change oil and filter to verify correct filter /oil is in engine and they will record start up rattle and submit to Hyundai.

After having it 2 days and several starts and test's requested by Hyundai, it is determined that the oil pump is bad "taking too long to build pressure" and will be replaced under warranty, and the parts should be here in 2 to 3 weeks. When questioned what we should drive until the parts get here and they said its fine to drive our vehicle until its fixed.

My concern now is how will the engine hold up since it has been operating for who knows how long with a weak oil pump... Or is Hyundai taking the cheap route saying its the oil pump, when its really the chain and hope it makes it past the warranty before it gets worse.

We typically hold on to vehicles for the long term, but after all this, we are wondering if we should start looking for our next vehicle. What do you guys think? TIA
We had a 2010 3.5 v6 SF.
Ours had the same start up rattle for years.
We ended up needing new variable cam actuators.
Not cheap, it was out of warranty.
Never drove the same after, so we sold it.
5w-20 oil always changed 6 months and often with few kms.
I asked about the pump because I thought it was loud, tech said it checked out ok.
 

Sj08

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It's already made it 9 years...a few more weeks isn't going to be the end of the engine.
Your oil change interval seems to be enough to keep an engine with "weak" oil pump from the scrap yard.

They MAY be taking the easier route, but without addressing the issue earlier, it's kinda hard to say.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is this should have been something you mentioned earlier to the dealership.
Thanks, I probably should have talked to the dealer sooner. Its the wife's vehicle so I don't drive it much, just noticed recently that the rattle lasted longer than I thought it should.
 

Sj08

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i would get issues in writing as i have seen that even thou warranty runs out the prior issue, especially since its a known problem may be covered, good luck!
Thanks for the tip. I don't have much experience with warranty.
 

Sj08

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We had a 2010 3.5 v6 SF.
Ours had the same start up rattle for years.
We ended up needing new variable cam actuators.
Not cheap, it was out of warranty.
Never drove the same after, so we sold it.
5w-20 oil always changed 6 months and often with few kms.
I asked about the pump because I thought it was loud, tech said it checked out ok.
Thanks for the reply, I'm wondering if ours is cam actuators or timing chain related also.
 
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Thanks for the reply, I'm wondering if ours is cam actuators or timing chain related also.
A good tech can find it easily, the timing at idle will be slightly off for one or both banks.

At first they tried to say it was the oil filter, and send me home.

It was not the oil filter........
 
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My guess cam actuators for mine, here's where I'm at after replacing the intake cam actuator and that didn't clear the codes, runs great otherwise with a rattle at start up too;

2012 Kia Sedona 3.5, 209k, just got under the timing cover, OBD codes P0016, P0017, crank-cam correlation, one code is sensor A, other B, meaning intake and exhaust cam sensors. Timing chains were both equally tension-ed, bank 1 tensioner has a very dark ring and a lighter colored ring where it wasn't compressing all the way in, I'll add that image here, I tried to show it next to the other one.
20210728_183514.jpg


Now as I pondered it being a tensioner problem it also occurred to me the reason it wasn't being pushed all the way in could be in the exhaust cam actuator or VVT solenoid not being able to pass enough oil to advance the exhaust cam VVT sprocket, thus the chain would not get tight enough to contract the tensioner to it's most compressed state, leaving the dark stain at the end, and as you can see a second ring is has stated to appear too, while the other tensioner has no dark ring, as shown above.

I could be wrong, but the plan is to change the tensioner and exhaust cam actuator for bank 1. From Toyota advice and experience, changing the cam actuators may be the best first thing to do, they can be very sensitive to dirt and the solenoids can stop working correctly. The exhaust cam actuator for bank 1 is under the rear valve cover, it's not really a hard task on the 3.5 because the wire harness comes around the front of the motor. I'd say the whole job of getting under the timing cover is fairly simple on the Sedona set-up because there is plenty of room on that end of the motor, though I didn't opt to remove the oil pan as the exhaust on the driver side is very close to the pan bolts, and one might find they have to get the exhaust loose, though I don't know that for sure. Tomorrow I can start assemble as I just got everything cleaned for sealer, I add anything more and update as I know more, and looking forward to your update as well.
 

Sj08

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A good tech can find it easily, the timing at idle will be slightly off for one or both banks.

At first they tried to say it was the oil filter, and send me home.

It was not the oil filter..
Its frustrating because the tech was confident it was timing chain related but said for warranty to be approved they need to follow Hyundai's requests, first was they need to change oil and filter, than call Hyundai and are told to do various tests, than call back with results and do more tests. They had vehicle for 2 full days.

Do you remember approximately how many miles was on yours when you needed to have work done to the actuators?
 

Sj08

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My guess cam actuators for mine, here's where I'm at after replacing the intake cam actuator and that didn't clear the codes, runs great otherwise with a rattle at start up too;

2012 Kia Sedona 3.5, 209k, just got under the timing cover, OBD codes P0016, P0017, crank-cam correlation, one code is sensor A, other B, meaning intake and exhaust cam sensors. Timing chains were both equally tension-ed, bank 1 tensioner has a very dark ring and a lighter colored ring where it wasn't compressing all the way in, I'll add that image here, I tried to show it next to the other one.
View attachment 65382

Now as I pondered it being a tensioner problem it also occurred to me the reason it wasn't being pushed all the way in could be in the exhaust cam actuator or VVT solenoid not being able to pass enough oil to advance the exhaust cam VVT sprocket, thus the chain would not get tight enough to contract the tensioner to it's most compressed state, leaving the dark stain at the end, and as you can see a second ring is has stated to appear too, while the other tensioner has no dark ring, as shown above.

I could be wrong, but the plan is to change the tensioner and exhaust cam actuator for bank 1. From Toyota advice and experience, changing the cam actuators may be the best first thing to do, they can be very sensitive to dirt and the solenoids can stop working correctly. The exhaust cam actuator for bank 1 is under the rear valve cover, it's not really a hard task on the 3.5 because the wire harness comes around the front of the motor. I'd say the whole job of getting under the timing cover is fairly simple on the Sedona set-up because there is plenty of room on that end of the motor, though I didn't opt to remove the oil pan as the exhaust on the driver side is very close to the pan bolts, and one might find they have to get the exhaust loose, though I don't know that for sure. Tomorrow I can start assemble as I just got everything cleaned for sealer, I add anything more and update as I know more, and looking forward to your update as well.
Thanks for the picture and some details of what you are working on, I'm interested in your results.
I will update my situation when ever it gets done.
 
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No matter what, the priority is to document this in writing with demands any issues be fixed and get written assurances or even extensions on the warranty if the decide to wait. My concern would be they drag out small fixes past the warranty expiration and they you're out of luck.

Make sure you can get it fixed under warranty.
 
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Was over reading the comments on a 2013 Hyundai Azera at repairpal.com, a long paragraph about halfway down the page, and I think he means the VVT solenoid. I was checking into other models with the 3.5, looks like a lot of tensioners got changed to no avail, along with a lot of timing chains and guides and VVT cam sprockets.

Which I should be changing out the exhaust VVT solenoid tomorrow before installing the rear valve cover, I had a slight spark plug setback that worked out well for getting the more expensive NGK's at Autozone, they only had 2 of the lesser in stock, so he gave me a discount on the others, $10.49 each, which was close enough I bought all 6, otherwise I was only going to get the 3 rear bank and get the rest Rockauto. The exhaust VVT solenoid was wholesale for ~$13 at Rockauto, just in case anyone looking to try this repair is going frugal.

I should add the spark plug for the Korean made is a 12mm thread diameter, not the 14mm, so be clear of the difference especially if ordering online as I did.
 
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Just a couple of interest points to see. I had 'cat on lap' syndrome this afternoon, meaning the cat needed his moment so I did more research as there is not as much information to be found on Kia/Hyundai V6. I wanted to install the plugs and valve covers but that's coming after supper, and the bank 1 exhaust VVT soleniod, which I can photo as any anomolies that may be present, assuming I am astute enough to catch them...

1st is an older TSB but does describe a fairly similar diagnostic procedure.
TSB 10-EM-006

2nd is a 4 cylinder where it goes through some diagnostics using a good scan tool and you can read the information too.
Updated last as unsolved as last described in comments.


3rd is just a good look at the timing chain area as he assembles it,
I think there is also the torque specs in the comments, but it is written in a different language.
 

Sj08

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Just a couple of interest points to see.
Thanks for the info. I don't think I have the skills to do a timing chain job, but find this stuff interesting.
We still don't have ours back from the dealer, when we went to pick it up, (after they called and said we can drive it until the parts come in and is fixed) they now say it shouldn't be driven until its fixed and gave us a rental.
 
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Finally driven enough to update, no changes after replacing bank 1 chain tensioner and both intake and exhaust VVT solenoids. Something I am happy is to be at least back to where I started and no worse off mechanically, for now. I have to suspect mine is a electrical issue for the crank/cam correlation. Some background information is this vehicle has had some front end damage as the bumper cover, left headlight assembly and windshield have been replaced. Not sure what else was damaged as it don't show obvious signs of wrinkles or misalignment, question being has the wiring been effected, I am still trying to get a free wiring diagram or find a break in the wiring.

Still has a start-up rattle too, here's another thread on that from Hyundai owners,
Hyundai Lambda 3.3L V6 - startup rattle - 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe SE - is this normal?
Latest post linked for a possible solution, " if oil pump related, a transient poor seal for a couple of seconds at startup (whether at an oilfilter gasket or oil pump o-ring) can cause a situation where they cannot possibly work correctly" though I am not going to pursue it unless I dismantle to that point;

So the rest of my update is got another drip from the water pump area, just in case I got a 3rd gasket, OEM from the Kia Dealership, $24,
Part Number K 21355 3C530 Gasket Water Pump, LH

Just to recap my first gasket had a crease and it leaked, than after driving for a couple of weeks now on the Fel-Pro there is coolant dripping underneath and I wiped a rag across the bottom of the water pump to find it there too. I can't say the gasket is a problem because I haven't diagnosed it yet and just bought the OEM gasket because the dealer parts department is closed over the weekend and I didn't want to get stuck without one, though I could also have checked the Hyundai dealer. First gasket was the Gates, came with the water pump, 2nd Fel-Pro, has the raise blue silicon seal, and noting the difference of the OEM gasket; has a rolled edge around where it seals.

So far all this has been fairly easy and even doing another water pump seal isn't difficult to think about doing though I would rather not have that problem I have to be thankful there is no leak from the timing cover. That said, I would only recommend removing the timing cover after replacing any and everything else as the risk of oil and coolant leaks can be avoided as much as possible, where feasible.
 

Sj08

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Joined
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Messages
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Finally driven enough to update, no changes after replacing bank 1 chain tensioner and both intake and exhaust VVT solenoids. Something I am happy is to be at least back to where I started and no worse off mechanically, for now. I have to suspect mine is a electrical issue for the crank/cam correlation. Some background information is this vehicle has had some front end damage as the bumper cover, left headlight assembly and windshield have been replaced. Not sure what else was damaged as it don't show obvious signs of wrinkles or misalignment, question being has the wiring been effected, I am still trying to get a free wiring diagram or find a break in the wiring.

Still has a start-up rattle too, here's another thread on that from Hyundai owners,
Hyundai Lambda 3.3L V6 - startup rattle - 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe SE - is this normal?
Latest post linked for a possible solution, " if oil pump related, a transient poor seal for a couple of seconds at startup (whether at an oilfilter gasket or oil pump o-ring) can cause a situation where they cannot possibly work correctly" though I am not going to pursue it unless I dismantle to that point;

So the rest of my update is got another drip from the water pump area, just in case I got a 3rd gasket, OEM from the Kia Dealership, $24,
Part Number K 21355 3C530 Gasket Water Pump, LH

Just to recap my first gasket had a crease and it leaked, than after driving for a couple of weeks now on the Fel-Pro there is coolant dripping underneath and I wiped a rag across the bottom of the water pump to find it there too. I can't say the gasket is a problem because I haven't diagnosed it yet and just bought the OEM gasket because the dealer parts department is closed over the weekend and I didn't want to get stuck without one, though I could also have checked the Hyundai dealer. First gasket was the Gates, came with the water pump, 2nd Fel-Pro, has the raise blue silicon seal, and noting the difference of the OEM gasket; has a rolled edge around where it seals.

So far all this has been fairly easy and even doing another water pump seal isn't difficult to think about doing though I would rather not have that problem I have to be thankful there is no leak from the timing cover. That said, I would only recommend removing the timing cover after replacing any and everything else as the risk of oil and coolant leaks can be avoided as much as possible, where feasible.
Too bad you still have a start up rattle, and coolant drip. Glad to hear that it has been fairly easy so far, your vehicle must have a lot more room than my Santa Fe.

The only thing I can update on mine is I got a call from the dealer today and they said the oil pump has been replaced and after running it, leaving sit for an hour and starting it, the rattle is the same. So now they need to start over and record the start up rattle and submit to Hyundai.
 

Sj08

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Want to update the outcome...

So after having a rental car for 50 days, we got our vehicle back. They ended up replacing the timing chain and all the parts associated with the chain.

Only started it twice since we picked it up and the start up rattle was quieter and didn't last as long as before, really not noticeable unless listening for it, so hopefully it stays that way.

Glad we had the 10 year warranty, and happy that Hyundai backed their warranty by fixing a 9.5 year old vehicle.
 
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Want to update the outcome...

So after having a rental car for 50 days, we got our vehicle back. They ended up replacing the timing chain and all the parts associated with the chain.

Only started it twice since we picked it up and the start up rattle was quieter and didn't last as long as before, really not noticeable unless listening for it, so hopefully it stays that way.

Glad we had the 10 year warranty, and happy that Hyundai backed their warranty by fixing a 9.5 year old vehicle.
I believe that Hyundai does a really good job with warranty issues, my dealer even has Starbucks coffee in the waiting room
 
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