Start-up rattle on Honda 2.0 K20A3

[Brule]

There is an intermittent start-up rattle on my 2003 Civic Si. It occurs only in cold starts and in colder weather [sub 40f]. This has gone on for 3 years/70K miles [maybe every other day during the 3 winter months], and I never was concerned about it, but after reading KCJeep's post and his results I thought I'd try to take care of this annoyance [and possible damage]. It's no worse than before, and honestly, at first I thought it was the accessory belt tensioner when I first heard it.

Oils tried:
TGMO 0w20
Mobil 1 5w20
O'Reilly synthetic 5w20
Valvoline Synpower 5w30
Castrol GTX HM 5w20
All with the same results. [Possibly one was better or worse than an other, but I never paid that close attention.]

Oil filters tried [All in this month with same results]:
Mobil 1 M1-110
Bosch Premium 3323
Honda OEM PLM-A02

Note: on this engine the filter attaches horizontally maybe a half foot above the oil pan. This leads me to believe it's a good candidate for draining its oil while sitting, thus the start-up rattle. KCJeep's solution was a Motorcraft with a silicone ADBV, but the Motorcraft spec-ed for this engine does not have an "S" [denoting silicone] at the end of the prod #. All of the filters I've tried are supposed to have a silicone ADBV anyway.

So is there a brand of oil filter from your experience that does particularly well curing start-up rattle esp. on horizontal fitments and particularly on the Honda 2.0 K20A3? [Rock Auto has Mann and Denso which I'm considering.] I'm also considering experimenting with the smaller filter my 350Z recommends. In Mobil 1 filters it's an M1-108. It interchanges with the Honda, just not as long. Maybe a smaller filter has less oil to lose while sitting and less oil to fill when starting. And if it can protect a 3.5 V6 should it not be able to handle a 2.0 I4? [Just throwing some ideas out].

 

[Hokiefyd]

In our CR-V (with a very similar K24), Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 has been the quietest as far as the startup rattle you get with colder weather. The Pennzoil Platinum 0W-20 I have in it now has been among the loudest. I always use the same type of filter, a Purolator PureOne.

Others here have posted similar good results with Mobil 1 0W-20 in their Honda K-series engines.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I should also clarify: how long does your startup rattle last after starting the engine? If just a few seconds, then disregard my post above. The rattle I'm talking about is the piston slap noise that persists for a few minutes after starting the engine. If you have a louder "rattle" that lasts for just a few seconds, then your noise is different from the one I reference above.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Brule
I'm also considering experimenting with the smaller filter my 350Z recommends. In Mobil 1 filters it's an M1-108. It interchanges with the Honda, just not as long.


The M1-108 is the short version. The long version is the M1-110.

Also, Purolator PL14610 is the long version in PureOne with silicone ADBV. The Bosch you were using (D3323) is the equivalent long version (D3300 is the short version).

With all those oil and filter combos used, I'd have to guess it's something inherent with the motor. Hard to believe with all those different oils & filters used, you didn't see any rattle difference.

What's the motor sound like when you do an oil & filter change ... and initial start-up with an empty oil filter?

 

[skyship]

Why don't you try a Honda oil filter?? OEM filters are a much safer bet.

 

[skyship]

Oops I missed the Honda filter in the list and it's too late to change my post, so bearing in mind the OEM filter has already been tried:

If you can't cure cold start piston slap with an OEM filter and a 0W oil then you might try LM Ceretec as it tends to reduce rattles. It does sometimes help reduce engine wear rates, by not by much unless you are using supermarket oil.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I should also clarify: how long does your startup rattle last after starting the engine? If just a few seconds, then disregard my post above....


Sorry, should have stated that this rattle always lasts less than one second.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Brule
I'm also considering experimenting with the smaller filter my 350Z recommends. In Mobil 1 filters it's an M1-108. It interchanges with the Honda, just not as long.


The M1-108 is the short version. The long version is the M1-110.

Also, Purolator PL14610 is the long version in PureOne with silicone ADBV. The Bosch you were using (D3323) is the equivalent long version (D3300 is the short version).

With all those oil and filter combos used, I'd have to guess it's something inherent with the motor. Hard to believe with all those different oils & filters used, you didn't see any rattle difference.

What's the motor sound like when you do an oil & filter change ... and initial start-up with an empty oil filter?


When I do an oil change I fill the filter with oil as best I can before installation [obviously it's not full because oil spills as I install it.] After an oil change there is no difference in sound. When I installed the OEM Honda filter it was around 35F and the car did the same 1 second rattle on the 1st start. The next morning after sitting overnight the start-up rattle returned.

After any start-up rattle the engine sounds normal.

As for it being inherent in the engine it's possible, but I've done searching and it doesn't appear to be a common symptom. I am convinced that the original owner was not vigilant when it comes to maintenance due to the fact it consumes about 1 qt. / 2k miles. But over the 70K miles I've owned it the consumption hasn't gotten worse, and the start-up noise has remained consistent.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Oops I missed the Honda filter in the list and it's too late to change my post, so bearing in mind the OEM filter has already been tried:

If you can't cure cold start piston slap with an OEM filter and a 0W oil then you might try LM Ceretec as it tends to reduce rattles. It does sometimes help reduce engine wear rates, by not by much unless you are using supermarket oil.


I would only try an additive as a last resort. The reason now I am convinced this is oil filter related is what occured when changing over to the OEM Honda filter. I changed only the filter right after putting 40 miles on the car...engine and oil was up to operating temp. On that initial start it made the same start-up rattle with a warm engine and oil. This rattle otherwise only occurs in sub 40f temps after sitting at least overnight.

 

[KCJeep]

That sounds like exactly what I was dealing with, and my filter is also horizontal and above the oil pan a good bit.

You're right there is not a Motorcraft for your application that will likely help. Bummer.

Have you tried a Napa Gold/Wix 1356/41356? I didn't see it on your list...the picture I found showed a thread end bypass and silicone ADBV much like the Motorcrafts but it was not clear if the filter shown was actually the 1356 or not.

 

[LeakySeals]

Nobody wants to go there, so I will. Try a thicker oil. I had a Corolla with a bad startup tick. went through the same process as you. Eventually went thicker, T6 5w40 stopped it completely. It didn't like my choice of thin oil, so I gave it what it wanted. I also had a startup rattle in the Camry, Kreen solved that one. (cleaned the vvt-i controller)

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Nobody wants to go there, so I will. Try a thicker oil. I had a Corolla with a bad startup tick. went through the same process as you. Eventually went thicker, T6 5w40 stopped it completely. It didn't like my choice of thin oil, so I gave it what it wanted. I also had a startup rattle in the Camry, Kreen solved that one. (cleaned the vvt-i controller)


No...I'm glad to go there. After this run of 0w20 that's it. In this engine consumption is worse with 0w20 and mpg is no better...possibly worse than 5w20 or 30.

I've had Mobil 1 0w40 in it over the summer, though, but it really made the engine sluggish. So being that was the summer there was no way to tell if the start-up rattle was there at that time. I'm going to experiment with the smaller Bosch 3300 filter first and report back with that result. If that doesn't work I think I'll try GC.

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: skyship
...If you can't cure cold start piston slap...


Doesn't piston slap take more time and heat to lessen? The noise I'm hearing is a quick 1 second metallic rattle that's there on start up which instantly stops.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
You're right there is not a Motorcraft for your application that will likely help. Bummer.


There is a Motorcraft that crosses to the Purolator 14610s. It's Motorcraft FL-822 ... BUT, it's essentially the same as the Purolator Classic L14610. No silicone ADBV and has dome end bypass valve just like the L14610. See photos here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...446#Post1521446

 

[Brule]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
That sounds like exactly what I was dealing with, and my filter is also horizontal and above the oil pan a good bit.

You're right there is not a Motorcraft for your application that will likely help. Bummer.

Have you tried a Napa Gold/Wix 1356/41356? I didn't see it on your list...the picture I found showed a thread end bypass and silicone ADBV much like the Motorcrafts but it was not clear if the filter shown was actually the 1356 or not.


Thanks, I'll keep that filter in mind if the smaller filter/GC experiment doesn't stop the rattle.

 

[LeakySeals]

Also, my old Camry likes Mobil 1 High Mileage for whatever reason. Very quiet even in cold weather. Slightly thicker, different add pack with more wear adds and cleaners than regular M1. So if you prefer just oil with no snake oils, Mobil 1 High Mileage may be worth a try.

That is..if you don't consider High Mileage oil snake oil

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: skyship
...If you can't cure cold start piston slap...


Doesn't piston slap take more time and heat to lessen? The noise I'm hearing is a quick 1 second metallic rattle that's there on start up which instantly stops.


If that engine uses oil pressure to keep the cam chain tensioner working, then it's possible that's what you're hearing - slight cam chain rattle until oil pressure come up on start-up. I don't know how that engine is designed, but throwing this out as a general comment.

 

[aquariuscsm]

You might even try a thicker conventional oil (10W30/40) and see what happens.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
You're right there is not a Motorcraft for your application that will likely help. Bummer.


There is a Motorcraft that crosses to the Purolator 14610s. It's Motorcraft FL-822 ... BUT, it's essentially the same as the Purolator Classic L14610. No silicone ADBV and has dome end bypass valve just like the L14610. See photos here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...446#Post1521446


Exactly what I said, those Motorcrafts are not going to help.

They don't have the "right stuff".

For my application, for which the OP's scenario sounds identical, thicker oil made it worse, not better.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Brule
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I should also clarify: how long does your startup rattle last after starting the engine? If just a few seconds, then disregard my post above....


Sorry, should have stated that this rattle always lasts less than one second.


OK, so forget my piston slap theory as this is oil pressure related. You might want to ask on a specific Honda forum and send off a sample of oil for analysis to see if it's big time main block trouble.
You are using an oil that is far too thin in my opinion and it might help to move up to an 0 or 5/30. If you want to do a long OCI then it seems that fully synthetic 0/30 is easier to find in the US, although there are quite a number of full synthetic 0 and 5w30 oils available in the EU. It might also cut your oil consumption in half.
If you get a very short rattle on cold starts and using an 0W does not help, then it might indicate a lack of oil pressure, which can happen if the engine is suffering from old age. I still think LM Ceretec might well help as it does have a very good reputation as a rattle killer in Germany.