Start-up rattle - oil filter leak down??

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695
Location
GA
Startup RATTLE would concern me more than startup TICK. I relate a RATTLE to something like a rod bearing being loose then being filled with oil. A TICK I relate to dry but not necessarily loose. So I'm just wondering, do you have a rattle or a tick. 😁
 

Dbsoccer

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Messages
15
Startup RATTLE would concern me more than startup TICK. I relate a RATTLE to something like a rod bearing being loose then being filled with oil. A TICK I relate to dry but not necessarily loose. So I'm just wondering, do you have a rattle or a tick. 😁
It is not a lifter tick. It is a rod knock.
 

Dbsoccer

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15
What did the shop that did the rebuild say?
I assembled the motor. The shop cleaned and inspected the crank (plus a ton of other stuff - cleaned/inspected block, surfaced deck, ground valves, honed bores (I used standard rings), surfaced the flywheel, etc.) As I recall the crank remained standard as well. So I put in standard bearings both times and both times plastigauge was used to verify clearance.
 
Messages
18
Location
PA
By all means, change the oil filter to eliminate it as a potential cause. The real question is why the noise was not present right after the rebuild. It's possible that there was a problem with the oil pump right from the beginning but bearing clearances were good, so no noise or oil light lingering for seconds until premature bearing wear occurred due to insufficient oil pressure. I suppose it is also possible that bearing clearances were initially too large causing low pressure and rapid wear to the bearings to the point where you now get the noise at startup and lingering oil light. Suggestions to put an oil pressure gauge on it make the most sense. I suspect you will find oil pressure is low at idle and under load either due to the pump, worn bearings or now both.
 
Messages
901
Location
montreal ,canada
I have a 97 Rav4 with 15k on a rebuild (2L4 cylinder) Have always used quality 10w-30 and Toyota filters. If the car has sat for 24 hours, it will rattle on start-up like I have a loose rod bearing. After a couple of seconds and the oil pressure light goes out, the rattling stops and the engine sounds as if I would expect. If I stop and start it again within a few minutes or a couple of hours, it will sound normal at start up. But if it is allowed sit for several hours or over night, it will rattle on start up. Any ideas why? I believe the filter has a leak down valve in the filter. And the filter sits on top of an oil cooler. I suspected pre-maturely failed bearings or pump but am now thinking maybe it may be something else. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Most Toyota engines with a rattle on startup is a vvt oil control valve issue. After turning off the engine the valve is supposed to lock so as to keep the oil from draining down. This is a long running issue with Toyota and other mfg's where the ocv leaks, therefore leaving the valvetrain dry which is the source of the noise. I'm not saying this is your problem for sure but it may well be. Better the oil control valve than rod bearings or whatever else in the bottom end though. Lots of info on this subject if you Google it. Good luck.
 
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25,445
Location
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Most Toyota engines with a rattle on startup is a vvt oil control valve issue. After turning off the engine the valve is supposed to lock so as to keep the oil from draining down. This is a long running issue with Toyota and other mfg's where the ocv leaks, therefore leaving the valvetrain dry which is the source of the noise. I'm not saying this is your problem for sure but it may well be. Better the oil control valve than rod bearings or whatever else in the bottom end though. Lots of info on this subject if you Google it. Good luck.
On a 97?
 

Dbsoccer

Thread starter
Messages
15
My 97 doesn't have vvt. It is pretty much hard wired as in you have one camshaft and that's all you get.
 
Messages
901
Location
montreal ,canada
Googled when Toyota introduced their vvt-i. 1991was the first one then in 1995 they put more of it in their lineup. So who knows, maybe he's got vvt-i and doesn't know it.
 
Messages
1,317
Location
PEARL River la
I would call Toyota and ask the parts guy where are the numbers for crank bearings. Toyota uses a numbering system for rod bearing and crank bearings as they are built to match crank. If you don't use there matched bearing you will get noises and shorten life out of them. I have rebuilt lots of them and with high miles I have seen cam tower worn beyond specs causing low oil pressure at idle as well as in the morning. You need to put an oil pressure gauge on engine and monitor. I would replace after market rod bearing with Toyota matched set to crank. Tolerances can be off from one rod to next and that is why Toyota last so long IE matched parts.

 
Messages
4,966
Location
VA
From reading your posts, it appears to me you aren't using a Toyota Oil Filter purchased from Toyota dealer. I don't think it is the filter but
since you are gonna change the oil, if I understand the post, that would be a simple $5 experiment. Hey, you gotta buy filter any ways, right?
 

Dbsoccer

Thread starter
Messages
15
Hi Gebo, I purchased Toyota Oil Filters from a dealer - Olathe Toyota in Olathe Kanas. This dealership has an online store that sell Toyota parts at the discounted rate. You have to pay the shipping so for some parts it makes sense. For other things it doesn't. I buy filters by the dozen to justify the shipping cost. The filter packaging says the filters I buy are Denso and are made in Thailand. So I think they are true OEM parts unless you know something different. But I agree, at my next oil change (very soon) I will pull the filter off cold, poke a hole in it and see if it is holding any oil. I suspect it is not but I have no way of knowing until I complete this experiment. The only issue with this is I don't like changing the oil cold. But since I change it every 3,000 miles changing it cold this one time is probably not a huge deal.
 

Dbsoccer

Thread starter
Messages
15
I would call Toyota and ask the parts guy where are the numbers for crank bearings. Toyota uses a numbering system for rod bearing and crank bearings as they are built to match crank. If you don't use there matched bearing you will get noises and shorten life out of them. I have rebuilt lots of them and with high miles I have seen cam tower worn beyond specs causing low oil pressure at idle as well as in the morning. You need to put an oil pressure gauge on engine and monitor. I would replace after market rod bearing with Toyota matched set to crank. Tolerances can be off from one rod to next and that is why Toyota last so long IE matched parts.

This is interesting. I'm not sure what you are saying. You say that Toyota has bearing sets that are matched to my crankshaft and that the rod journal diameters may be different but Toyota bearing sets account of this? But when someone builds an engine they should check the clearance on all rods and mains independent of the supplier of the bearings. And if they find something is off they address it. I'm not sure what buying Toyota bearing sets buys me. I must not understand what you are saying.
 
Messages
1,317
Location
PEARL River la
You understand correctly. Toyota engine bearings match crank, rod and block. If you plastic gauge that gives you a good reference but if you mic the crank and rods that is more accurate. Toyota built there engines tough so for same price or couple of dollars more why not get correct ones for the vehicle.
 

Dbsoccer

Thread starter
Messages
15
Ok. This is good to know. But in my case, the crank was initially mic'd and the bearings selected. I don't recall them being standard or not but in any case the first check was using micrometers and the bearings selected based on this. The bearings used were not, however, OEM. The plasti-gauge was simply a second check I did during assembly. Of course when I replaced the bearings with the engine still in the car, it was the only check. But thanks for this info on Toyota bearings.
 
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