Standards for oil filters

[LarryL]

Guess I started this in oil and should have placed it here....

I see standards by API and ACEA for engine oil but none for oil filters. It appears that there are lots of filters from questionable quality to pretty good. So, is the message that filters are not that important. Just use anything. Filters don't do much of anything.

I ask this because I cut a filter up from a quick lube place. It had eight holds in the base with one while larger and a black ADBV. Most of the filter media was all mashed up in the closed end of the filter and was like mush. I was going to cut filters to look inside but quit. Why bother, a lot of them are junk. And I guess junk is good enough.

 

[Ugly3]

You got it right. Full flow oil filters don't do much anyway so as long as it does not fall apart it does not make much difference what filter you have in the car. One of the better constructed filters is the Wal*Mart SuperTech for $2.07 each.

So, pay $2.07 at Wal*Mart or $12.00 for a Mobil 1 oil filter and you will get about the same filtering performance.

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
You got it right. Full flow oil filters don't do much anyway so as long as it does not fall apart it does not make much difference what filter you have in the car. One of the better constructed filters is the Wal*Mart SuperTech for $2.07 each.

So, pay $2.07 at Wal*Mart or $12.00 for a Mobil 1 oil filter and you will get about the same filtering performance.

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You've come into this section and posted this often, but never any proof to back it up. Why?

IMO a full flow filter is important. In most engines it acts as to prevent drainback and even bypass flow in the case of a filter clog. I've personally seen them fail, so I'd say there is a definite difference in quality.

Why don't car manufacturers have more specifications on them. Some do, they are just not labeled on the box. You can bet if an aftermarket filter failed and your car was under warranty, they wouldn't pay if the filter was found to be the cause.

Another thing they are doing is designing cars with filters that don't leave the filter maker any leeway. Look at the cartridge filters, they usually don't have a ADBV or bypass valve and often leave little room for construction differences.

-T

 

[Ugly3]

T-Keith - You've come into this section and posted this often, but never any proof to back it up. Why?

I have read hundreds of UOA reports with all kinds of filters. Some 95% efficient, some 68% efficient - the results are the same. Filter seems to make no significant difference.

Bob (the oil guy) ran with no oil filter and posted good UOA reports.

The data suggests that if the oil filter does not fall apart one will do about as good as another. What I get a kick out of is all the guys trying to find bigger filters - it is like getting a bigger paper bag for the snipe hunt.

 

[Ugly3]

The last data I saw suggested that 80% or more of the cars in this country are serviced at quick lube places. I doubt the no name filters being used by the quick lube places are Mobil 1 quality filters. Just the lowest bidder who produces a filter that does not fall apart.

Fram must have a major portion of the aftermarket filter business, they are not inexpensive and they are not of the best construction. But that sure seem to be "good enough".

 

[T-Keith]

UOA is good for telling the condition of the oil, but how does it tell you if the filter's ADBV is working problem. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the particles measured by typical UOAs smaller then the particles trapped by the filter?

A UOA isn't the best test for a filter, if one at all.

-T

 

[Ugly3]

T-Keith - A UOA isn't the best test for a filter, if one at all.

I think you are coming to my camp. A full flow oil filter catches the big chunks floating around in the oil. Other than that they don't do much.

Sure the ADBV has to work on horizontal applications and the bypass has to meet specs and function. But look at all the crap filters out there and it is clear that it is not an engine ending deal.

 

[LarryL]

For me, I would like to see specs like ACEA specs for filter applications and see them printed on the filter. For that, I would pay extra.

What's the message, if you can put any piece of junk filter on your car and not worry unless you have a problem? Is everyone saying, 'Do not worry, just buy another new car in three years'. It's a lottery with a ticket price that varies from $1.75 to $12.00 and the cheapest tickets are available at the local quickie oil change place. Who wants to pay ten bucks for a ticket that's only worth two bucks?

 

[TC]

"Just use anything. Filters don't do much of anything..."

General filter background info here, Larry:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000976

 

[T-Keith]

Filter's keep these "big" chunks from being pushed through the bearings, I'd say that's still important, after all the "little" chunks that it misses are less likely to do damage then the "big" ones. Their not meant to clean the oil, only hold the large contaminants.

I still don't see how you can say they don't matter. I think choosing a brand and size of filter can help with many problems in an engine, contaminants, startup lubrication, pressure, ect.

-T

 

[Ugly3]

As Purolator says, their filters meet the flow rates, bypass pressures, and ADBV requirements for all the spec'd applications. So does Fram, STP, Wal*Mart, and Mobil 1.

So the bottom line is that no matter which filter you choose it will meet the specs for the application and filter out the big chunks. When one starts picking "oversized", "undersized", or whatever all bets are off.

Are some filters constructed better than others? You bet. According to folks here on BITOG the Wal*Mart SuperTech filter is very well constructed. The Mercruiser oil filter study indicated only a very few filters they had any concerns at all about, even then they did not have any that were "rejected".

 

[Ray H]

I'm still of the opinion that full-flow oil filters are more an appendage than a necessity these days. The high detergency/dispersant motor oils with Group II and above base oils that resist oxidation go a long way in keeping particulate size and quantity under the radar. I dutifully change my oil filter at each oil change, but I don't obsess over fancy brand and high price. When I submitted an oil sample to Blackstone in August, the report came back specifically noting, "excellent filtration". (a new "old stock" $1.97 ST 2808 I bought a stash of when Wally*World discontinued that stock number)

[ October 19, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Ugly3]

Here is a link to Bob (Is The Oil Guy) running without an oil filter. The UOA is on page four. Read it and weep!

BITOG - Running With No Oil Filter

 

[T-Keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ugly3:
Here is a link to Bob (Is The Oil Guy) running without an oil filter. The UOA is on page four. Read it and weep!

BITOG - Running With No Oil Filter

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A UOA doesn't convince me at all, since it's not a good measure of an oil filter's effectiveness.

-T

 

[Spector]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
I'm still of the opinion that full-flow oil filters are more an appendage than a necessity these days. The high detergency/dispersant motor oils with Group II and above base oils that resist oxidation go a long way in keeping particulate size and quantity under the radar.

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I also concur. My own test of two 11,000 mile OCIs one with a filter change half way the other with the same filter yielded the same UOA results. I have yet to cut one open and see any of these large particles people speak of or one even remotely close to being clogged from dirt. They are primarily backup catastrophic failure devices in todays engines with todays oils IMO. As long as they don't self destruct they are useless, especially if mounted vertically.

 

[Schultz]

quote:

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As long as they don't self destruct they are useless, especially if mounted vertically.

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Other than providing a revenue stream for filter companies, I agree with Spector and Ugly for the most part that the filter is more or less useless. But, what is your take on a vertical mounted filter why would that make it any worse?

 

[haley10]

I disagree.

I think oil filter selection is extremely important. It is probably much more important than selecting the oil itself.

While it may be a consensus on Bitog that oil filters are useless, I have failed to be convinced. A lot of this is well meaning, but simply bad science, imho.

Simple uoa's are a great tool, but I don't think they tell the whole story. I remain convinced that filter efficiency is important.

Particles that cause engine wear can be filtered, but not be visible to the eye.

[ October 20, 2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: haley10 ]

 

[TC]

"As long as they don't self destruct they are useless."

A fun boxing match. In one corner we have...gut feelings. In the other, SAE studies. Personally, I doubt if engines know or care about gut feelings.

The AC Delco/Detroit Diesel SAE study concluded that "Particles from 2-22 microns are most likely to cause damage" and that "Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2-22 microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling engine wear." The finer medias, such as PureOne, have pores as small as 10 microns per Grease's Mercruiser study. So at least the harmful 10-22 micron particulates will be removed. Not perfect filtration, but certainly miles from "useless." And note that with a human hair having a diameter of 40-90 microns, none of these 2-22 micron particles would be visible to the eye.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by motorguy222:
Haley is right.Has anyone cut open a used filter and backflushed it with water?

I have,there is a LARGE amount of very fine dirt that will flow from the filtering material.

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What's your technique? I have some cut open spread out used filter elements in my garage that I was going to throw away, might as well learn something from them first. They all look clean to the nekkid eye, but I'm sure they are holding some fine cr@p.

 

[Ugly3]

Eighty % of the cars on the road in the USA are serviced at a quick lube place with the most inexpensive filter that can be found. Cars are running well in excess of 100,000 miles with no problem. How important can a "better" oil filter be?