Sta-Bil for a 2 stroke?

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Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Originally Posted By: SWSportsman
If there is any chance at all that you may get gasoline with ethanol added, make sure you buy the new blue-colored Marine Forumla Sta-Bil. It's especially formulated to prevent phase separation.


If you check their web site, Stabil does NOT claim that it prevents phase separation. In an e-mail from their tech., he claims no product can prevent phase separation. Others, like Pri G and Startron claim to reduce phase separation.

The Marine Stabil site only indicates that it has more detergent and anti corrosive vs. the red. And, because you use the Marine formula at 1/2 the rate vs. the red, one of these components (can't remember) equals out to be the same as the red.

Mamala boy, I am intriqued that you only mix enough 2 cycle ethanol fuel mix for 1 or 2 weeks. Do you have any references that back up your statements that the ethanol breaks down the 2 cycle oil component? I routinely mix and store 2 cycle fuel for several months (Stihl Ultra)...... Chainsaws, trimmers, back pack blowers.



"Q: How long is gasoline good for? What about E10 ethanol gas?
A: The new E10 ethanol gasoline gets stale much quicker than non-ethanol gas. Ethanol gas gets stale after only 1-2 months, even in a sealed gas can. When gas gets stale, it will cause the rubber components is your fuel system to go bad. The #1 problem we see with equipment brought in for repair is fuel related. The use of fuel stabilizer generally doubles the life of your fuel. Remember, fuel stabilizer must be added when the fuel is fresh. It does not make already stale fuel fresh again. Many of our customers buy non-ethanol gas (availabe at most boat harbor gas pumps) which will stay fresh for up to a year."

First you must make sure you're getting fresh ethanol fuel. I make enough 2 cycle mixture on a daily basis or for about 1 week. Reason why not use fresh made mixture. Also how old is fuel at the gas pump, most don't know. I've seen from many hours of usage where fuel is the problem from consumer that don't realize 2 cycle oil will be degraded over a period of time. I don't recommend leaving 2 cycle mixture in your tank if you don't use the equipment frequently. Chainsaws aren't used much but propably during different seasons. Keep the tank dry.

I've got about 7000 hours on a shindaiwa premiun professioanl trimmer purchase in 1995 and thats's the procedure the trimmer has gone through. Cleaned weekly and greased every other week. Air filter cleaned every three days. Trimmer is still going strong. Now you want to knwo what 2 cycle oil is being used?
 
Mamala Bay:

"Outboard motors and small 2cycle engine are two different thing."

You're going to have to help me out with that one. I'm talking two stroke outboards. Both burn the same fuel albeit slightly different oil chemistry. Both have fuel lines, carburetors, etc. One is usually air cooled the other liquid cooled. For the purposes of your argument, I'd say that the difference is insignificant.

I've never had a fuel problem other than water/dirt getting in it on occasion. I might be wrong, but I'm assuming that cold temperatures might help help preserve the fuel over winter. Hot climates may be more conducive to fuel deterioration. I really don't know for sure. However, even in the summer, I'll mix up a couple gallons of fuel for my two stroke OPE and use it all summer with no problems.
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Mamala Bay:

"Outboard motors and small 2cycle engine are two different thing."

You're going to have to help me out with that one. I'm talking two stroke outboards. Both burn the same fuel albeit slightly different oil chemistry. Both have fuel lines, carburetors, etc. One is usually air cooled the other liquid cooled. For the purposes of your argument, I'd say that the difference is insignificant.

I've never had a fuel problem other than water/dirt getting in it on occasion. I might be wrong, but I'm assuming that cold temperatures might help help preserve the fuel over winter. Hot climates may be more conducive to fuel deterioration. I really don't know for sure. However, even in the summer, I'll mix up a couple gallons of fuel for my two stroke OPE and use it all summer with no problems.



Are you using ethanol or non ethanol fuel. non ethanol fuel can be purcahse here geared for marine equipment so they are pretty much cleared with fuel problems.

I tested a 2 cycle mixture in a one gallon container with ethanol fuel. After 8 months it smelled like varnish.
 
Eight months...bad fuel....this means you then have to mix it fresh weekly? Doesn't compute.

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay

"Q: How long is gasoline good for? What about E10 ethanol gas?
A: The new E10 ethanol gasoline gets stale much quicker than non-ethanol gas. Ethanol gas gets stale after only 1-2 months, even in a sealed gas can. When gas gets stale, it will cause the rubber components is your fuel system to go bad. The #1 problem we see with equipment brought in for repair is fuel related. The use of fuel stabilizer generally doubles the life of your fuel. Remember, fuel stabilizer must be added when the fuel is fresh. It does not make already stale fuel fresh again. Many of our customers buy non-ethanol gas (availabe at most boat harbor gas pumps) which will stay fresh for up to a year."

I've seen from many hours of usage where fuel is the problem from consumer that don't realize 2 cycle oil will be degraded over a period of time. I don't recommend leaving 2 cycle mixture in your tank if you don't use the equipment frequently. Chainsaws aren't used much but propably during different seasons. Keep the tank dry.


Which marine forum did you source your above quote? Those guys have gone goo goo over the ethanol debate. Fiberglass tanks were definitely problematic, but improved fuel handling methods seems to have solved many of their complaints, IMO.

I don't disagree that poorly stored fuel/equipment won't cause problems. But in 30 years of professional use, I haven't seen the need to mix fresh fuel weekly (I have had problems with 6 month+ old fuel). With my sporatic use, I would be spending more time draining/storing, mixing/disposing gas than actually working.

Regarding draining your equipment dry, some believe that the minute amounts that remain in the carb can still "gum' up the works. There are definitely two schools/successes here.

Here is what Chevron says about ethanol fuel storage. Are they biased or more/less knowledgable than "net" experts? Each person decides what "spin" they believe.

http://www.chevron.com/products/ourfuels...m_gasoline.aspx Click on the different subjects.

"Federal and California reformulated gasolines (E-10) will survive storage as well or better than conventional gasoline."

"Adding oil to gasoline doesn't change its stability. Gasoline-oil mixtures for two-stroke-cycle engines will survive storage as well as gasoline itself."

TO BE FAIR, I INCLUDE THE NEXT, BUT MY STIHL MANUALS DON'T GO ALONG WITH THIS STRICTLY.....THEY RECOMMEND NOT TO STORE FUEL MORE THAN 90 DAYS NOR DRAIN/STORE THE EQUIPMENT UNLESS LONGER THAN 90 DAYS

"The owner’s manuals of much small-engine equipment recommend that the gasoline be less than 30 days old. They also recommend that the equipment not be stored with gasoline in the fuel tank. The tank should be emptied and the equipment run until the fuel line and carburetor also are empty. Both recommendations are intended to protect essential fuel system parts from gum deposits. While Chevron gasoline is stable for much longer than 30 days, it is Chevron’s policy to defer to the recommendations of the equipment manufacturer."

"Equipment with a two-stroke-cycle engine requires fuel that is a mixture of gasoline and oil. While this mixture is as stable as gasoline, Chevron recommends not preparing more than you can use in a month or two because disposing of any excess is not easy."

"Most gasolines contain negligible amounts of gum when they are manufactured, and most contain special chemicals ("stabilizers") to retard gum formation. It is the stabilizers that make it possible to store Chevron gasolines for a year when the conditions are good."


"Federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as well or better than conventional gasolines. The regulations require reformulated gasolines to have less light ends and less olefins (federal, later; California, now) than conventional gasolines. As explained above, it is the oxidation of olefins that leads to gum formation. Reformulated gasolines also contain oxygenates. The common oxygenates are stable molecules that do not form gums."


Addendum....I dislike people that spout internet "facts" as the gospel, myself include. I present this info to counter your "facts", but I am skeptical of it's truth. I think that a lot of the ethanol myth was enhanced by the marine folks using bad handling practices after E-10 came on board (IMO).
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Peace! I hope you are not using Amsoil Saber...it contains no stabilizer like the Stihl ultra!
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Originally Posted By: doitmyself
If you check their web site, [color:#CC0000]Stabil does NOT claim that it prevents phase separation.


I didn't say that Stabil's website claimed anything. They call it "fuel stabilizer" which by definition would include preventing or reducing phase separation.

Spend some time with some E10, water, glass jars and Marine Stabil and you will learn more than studying various websites or listening to self-described "techs."
 
Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Mamala Bay:

"Outboard motors and small 2cycle engine are two different thing."

You're going to have to help me out with that one. I'm talking two stroke outboards. Both burn the same fuel albeit slightly different oil chemistry. Both have fuel lines, carburetors, etc. One is usually air cooled the other liquid cooled. For the purposes of your argument, I'd say that the difference is insignificant.

I've never had a fuel problem other than water/dirt getting in it on occasion. I might be wrong, but I'm assuming that cold temperatures might help help preserve the fuel over winter. Hot climates may be more conducive to fuel deterioration. I really don't know for sure. However, even in the summer, I'll mix up a couple gallons of fuel for my two stroke OPE and use it all summer with no problems.



Are you using ethanol or non ethanol fuel. non ethanol fuel can be purcahse here geared for marine equipment so they are pretty much cleared with fuel problems.

I tested a 2 cycle mixture in a one gallon container with ethanol fuel. After 8 months it smelled like varnish.


Bottom of the barrel pump gas, 87 octane.
 
Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
your kiddding me right.


No sir.

But I will agree this is too old. My intent was to only mix a year's worth. But my weedeater and leaf blower don't use much, so it lasted longer than intended.

I did my last mowing (for leaves) today, and put up the toys for the year. You'll be pleased to hear I was down to just couple ounces of mixed fuel in the can. I didn't want to press my luck going a full two years, so I drained the tanks and mixed up some fresh fuel to leave in over the winter.

I was planning on burning the old fuel in a steel can, but after I drained the weedeater and blower tanks I had nearly a quart. The only steel cans I have handy are little soup cans, and that would take hours to burn. So I put it in an old oil bottle and will decide what to do with it later. Maybe the city will have a free hazardous waste disposal day next spring.

For homeowners, your suggestion of a week or two's worth of fuel isn't realistic. Since a gallon lasted me two seasons, I guess I use about an ounce or three per week. Should I get a graduated cylinder to measure a tenth of an ounce of oil to mix in?

BTW, the gas station around the corner from us does not have ethanol in the gas.
 
Your last post on this subject was on Dec. 8 so why didn't you state you were using non ethanol gas. If you're using non ethanol gas you are fortunate. Non ethanol is difficult to find and the vast majority uses ethanol fuel. After many hours of usage I still say the fuel will make the difference in the long run provided proper maintenance are performed.

Personally I don't like this ethanol, I've seen a big difference since it came out.
 
I didn't remember for certain the gas was ethanol free. I went and got gas this morning because I ran out for the mower. While I was there I looked over the pumps for a ethanol sticker and couldn't find one.

I only go to that station for lawn equipment and jet ski gas so I hadn't been there in a while. They're a bit pricey, but its right around the corner.
 
ksJoe,

a number of sites indicate that Kansas is one of the states (like Michigan) that does not require pump labeling for ethanol content. I will leave it up to you to confirm it:

http://www.ksgrains.com/ethanol/E10unleaded.html

"Kansas Fuel Retailers & Drivers Pick Ethanol
On July 1, 2005, the law requiring labeling of fuel containing up to 10 percent ethanol was repealed."
 
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