ST3980 Cut Open - When will it end?

[labman]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We been through this before. Typically psid with cold oil from the tests we have actually seen are in the 20-30 psid region tops, not 80 psid. 80 psid is a lot of pressure that few BBC pumps would put out. As superbusa points outs not a lot of flow is likely to be happening with cold oil while the oil pump hits pressure relief. So for 80 psid, the filter had to flow basically 0 oil despite over 80 psi of head pressure. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's not a given. The guy did not have an oil filter failure until he used ecore for the first time.



Yes, we have been through this before. I'm sure that you can also look at a number of instances where pressures produced are in excess of the pressure relief limits of the pump. Go look at the high volume Soobie application with the 15gpm oil pump. Go look at any 70's through 80's Porsche that has a relief limit of (something like) 100psi ..but since the engineers spec'd a 50 weight, the thing is peaking 135 for the first 10 minutes of operation.

Never heard of anything like that? Go and reread Bowtie's thread and reread the fact that the kid REVVED the cold engine up showing off.

..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.

You'll not hear me defend the lame defects we've seen, but I'll really try not fabricate truth from "wants".


+1 A number of good points. An oil pump is going to put out a certain amount of oil. Once it reaches the set point of the relief, part of the oil will go straight back to the pan. The rest, at whatever the pressure, will go to the oil filter. If the bypass isn't blocked off, part of it will bypass the filter. However, combine a high volume oil pump, heavy oil, a cold engine, a blocked bypass, and then rev the engine? He should have kept his mouth shut and not tried to blame his mistakes on the filter.

I am discounting the report of the Ecore cage shattering. It is out of line with both other reports and my experience. I have never used one, but have messed around with the cage out of cartridge elements. They are quite tough and much harder to distort than steel center tubes. I have even put hose clamps on them and tightened them down. With equal pressure all around, the plastic takes much more than the metal.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa



Didn't Champ Labs come back saying the filter was subjected to 70~80 PSID and therefore the cage failed? If that's the case, then doesn't that sound somewhat low if indeed an idle-to-high engine RPM with cold oil can possibly produce that level of a PSID spike?

Like I said earlier, I'd like to see what Champ Labs answer is to the following question: "What is the maximum PSID an Ecore filter can withstand before the media or center cage fails?". They must have failure analysis and even testing to failure to back-up their analysis.

They claimed the 70~80 PSID was the cause ... so that tells me the design limit is at that level.


Yes exactly, you have to assume 70-80 psid is the design limit, maybe even the OEM spec. So how convenient for Champ to claim the filter saw an over spec 70-80 psid, with no real proof that it did. But like I said lets forget about the psid and look at filter failure mode although it makes one wonder how well they flow. When the ecore failed the media lodged in the filter outlet blocking oil flow. It stands to reason an all metal constructed filter would not as likely fail to that extreme. That isn't a reason to not run ecores if you have a filter bypass, but the nylon cage is inferior to a metal center tube IMO.

 

[AuthorEditor]

What I don't understand with that earlier report of the overpressurized Ecore is that in my understanding all Ecores have a built in bypass valve. It's that special ADBV/bypass thingy that somehow opens further to let the oil bypass if the pressure differential builds up too high. Or, am I wrong on that? Are there special Ecores for Chevy applications that don't have the ADBV/bypass thingy?

 

[labman]

Exactly.

 

[mechanicx]

Many GM engines, like the SBC and BBC don't have the filter bypass in the filter but on the filter mounting pad. The Ecores for these applications don't have the extra set of holes that ecores with an in filter bypass have. So they don't have a bypass.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
What I don't understand with that earlier report of the overpressurized Ecore is that in my understanding all Ecores have a built in bypass valve.

No they do not,not all of them GM has it in the block NOT the filter.

 

[JT1]

The e cores ADBV is the Bypass. Even on the ST5 I cut open it had the EXACT same ADBV/Bypass as the rest of the ecores.

So yes even the Chevy spec. E cores have a bypass built into the filter.

 

[mechanicx]

But the GM ecores do not have the extra set of holes for the combo bypass.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: JT1
The e cores ADBV is the Bypass. Even on the ST5 I cut open it had the EXACT same ADBV/Bypass as the rest of the ecores.

So yes even the Chevy spec. E cores have a bypass built into the filter.

I guess i wouldn't know then don't use escraps..normally ther not.

 

[labman]

Look closer, it lacks the second row of inlet holes as mechanicx said.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
What I don't understand with that earlier report of the overpressurized Ecore is that in my understanding all Ecores have a built in bypass valve. It's that special ADBV/bypass thingy that somehow opens further to let the oil bypass if the pressure differential builds up too high. Or, am I wrong on that? Are there special Ecores for Chevy applications that don't have the ADBV/bypass thingy?


Here's a problem I see with the Ecore ADBV/BPV combo design. In order for the bypass valve (BPV) to work, the rubber flapper needs to lift/bend up far enough to uncover the inner circle of holes so oil can bypass the filter element.

Well, the only way the rubber flapper lifts/bends higher is from pressure caused by the oil flow ... NOT the pump's supply pressure (ie, static pressure at pump's outlet). In other words, you could have a pretty high filter inlet pressure without much oil volume flow (ie, cold oil), and that may not allow the bypass valve to operate correctly. Plus, if the oil is cold so is the rubber flapper so it might take more oil flow to make it lift enough to bypass the oil. If that's the case, the bypass pressure might be much higher when cold then when hot. I can't see now this design can stay linear throughout the cold to hot temperature range of conditions.

Wasn't there talk in the past about the Ecore ADBV/BPV design not being the most reliable design and questions if the bypass function of the design even worked well?

 

[labman]

Any bypass works by moving in response to PSID, even your beloved Purolator 45 RPM dome end bypass. When you have higher pressure on one side than the other it moves. Once it moves creating an opening, you then have flow.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: labman
Any bypass works by moving in response to PSID, even your beloved Purolator 45 RPM dome end bypass. When you have higher pressure on one side than the other it moves. Once it moves creating an opening, you then have flow.


The flapper bypass valve on the Ecore does not function directly from the PSID ... it functions from oil flow, and the force that the flow creates on the flapper. The flow rate does in the end correspond to some "PSID" across the media, but the actual PSID is really not the driver because there isn't a PSID across the rubber flapper.

The bypass valve in an Ecore does not work like a traditional bypass valve in a non-Ecore filter. It is supposed to do the same thing ... that is bypass oil when the PSID gets too high, but it does it in a totally different fashion. There is a huge difference in the actual functionality of the two designs.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.


I tried standing on an E-core cage from a SuperTech ST3506... it broke into a hundred pieces on the garage floor (I weigh 220+ lbs, but it broke way before I put all my weight on it).

Point is, if the thing ever did break you'd get a hundred shards of nylon rumbling around in your engine, blocking off oil passages, etc. The core does not deform under stress, it just breaks.


Didn't Champ Labs come back saying the filter was subjected to 70~80 PSID and therefore the cage failed? If that's the case, then doesn't that sound somewhat low if indeed an idle-to-high engine RPM with cold oil can possibly produce that level of a PSID spike?

Like I said earlier, I'd like to see what Champ Labs answer is to the following question: "What is the maximum PSID an Ecore filter can withstand before the media or center cage fails?". They must have failure analysis and even testing to failure to back-up their analysis.

They claimed the 70~80 PSID was the cause ... so that tells me the design limit is at that level.


That's far in excess of any metal center tube. Granted, they'll flatten as the media, that's turned into a sail, blocks off your outlet and grendades your engine.

I have a hard time deciding which grenading event makes me feel better if and when that unicorn appears.

"Only a fool would want nylon shards grenading his engine! Real men want straight oil blockage to do the job! That kind of quality grenading can't be achieved with a cheaper filter!! Cheapskates!!"

 

[Herz]

lol gary.

 

[labman]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: labman
Any bypass works by moving in response to PSID, even your beloved Purolator 45 RPM dome end bypass. When you have higher pressure on one side than the other it moves. Once it moves creating an opening, you then have flow.


The flapper bypass valve on the Ecore does not function directly from the PSID ... it functions from oil flow, and the force that the flow creates on the flapper. The flow rate does in the end correspond to some "PSID" across the media, but the actual PSID is really not the driver because there isn't a PSID across the rubber flapper.

The bypass valve in an Ecore does not work like a traditional bypass valve in a non-Ecore filter. It is supposed to do the same thing ... that is bypass oil when the PSID gets too high, but it does it in a totally different fashion. There is a huge difference in the actual functionality of the two designs.


OK, you have holes in a metal plate with a rubber flap blocking them. One side has whatever the inlet pressure is, the other the outlet pressure. If the pressure difference is great enough, the rubber is pushed out of the way.

Now please explain how that is different from a metal plate blocking a hole with a spring holding it in place?

 

[mechanicx]

A metal plate and spring is more durable and linear than a flap of nitrile.

 

[Holly]

My father was a plastic injection molder his entire life - I can tell you that if the gaps in the cage were not intentional, one of two things are happening:

1. The cage may have been one of the first few to go through the machine after start up and the plastic didn't inject all the way (guessing from here, the top with the gaps were at the top of the mold).

2. More than likely the mold in the plastic injection machine is shot or dirty. Molds get smashed together thousands of times. Sometimes plastic and residue builds up during the process and blocks plastic from getting to it. If it is residue, that means whoever is operating this machine doesn't care - because it would be grossly evident that there is a problem based on the faulty product as well as the machine sensors.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Now please explain how that is different from a metal plate blocking a hole with a spring holding it in place?



This would interest me too.

Are we into some yet untapped dimension of fluid dynamics here?? I can handle sub-space and hyper-space references.


Quote:
A metal plate and spring is more durable and linear than a flap of nitrile.


Perhaps so, but I need more mojo on the "undiscovered realm" here.

 

[mechanicx]

It real simple nitrile deteriorates and doesn't always seal. That's why some filters have a silicon ADBV. As far as the ADBV combo opening only at spec psid how does equalized or even pressure differential guarantee the flap opens at an exact psid? I don't understand what Labman is trying to say. The nitril ADBV still has to act like a spring and seal, neither of which it would be the best at IME.