Sonics Missing Brake Pads
- Thread starter The Critic
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
2. The vehicles all passed end of line testing - which does a very in depth brake test even actuating the ABS at all four corners - proving that, atleast in this case, it is possible to drive with a brake pad missing.
As an engineer who have design "some" manufacturing test process, if something like this can pass a test, the test is bad and should have never deployed in the line.
The engineer designed this test or his/her manager should probably be fired.
It is a static test and did exactly what it was supposed to. It measures brake force and the brake force was in spec. The system doesn't look at the brake calipers. I know the system as I am responsible for it at my plant so I take offense to that comment when you have no idea how it operates. It tests and picks up a lot of stuff - but you (as an engineer also) should understand that if a system detects a passing value that is all it is looking for.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
2. The vehicles all passed end of line testing - which does a very in depth brake test even actuating the ABS at all four corners - proving that, atleast in this case, it is possible to drive with a brake pad missing.
As an engineer who have design "some" manufacturing test process, if something like this can pass a test, the test is bad and should have never deployed in the line.
The engineer designed this test or his/her manager should probably be fired.
It is a static test and did exactly what it was supposed to. It measures brake force and the brake force was in spec. The system doesn't look at the brake calipers. I know the system as I am responsible for it at my plant so I take offense to that comment when you have no idea how it operates. It tests and picks up a lot of stuff - but you (as an engineer also) should understand that if a system detects a passing value that is all it is looking for.
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Usually when safety items like brakes and pads processes are involved on a line they use something akin to a witness test to ensure that the process was complete. It might be photo eyes, sensors ect....
I'm not sure I buy this entire story, maybe it is just that ...fiction.
I'm not sure I buy this entire story, maybe it is just that ...fiction.
What stops me from going out buying a brand new vehicle, taking it home and taking a brake pad out out and driving it back in hopes for $ compensation?
Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
What stops me from going out buying a brand new vehicle, taking it home and taking a brake pad out out and driving it back in hopes for $ compensation?
I think the compensation you would get is the one brake pad.
Anyway, they know the effected vehicles' VIN sequence.
What stops me from going out buying a brand new vehicle, taking it home and taking a brake pad out out and driving it back in hopes for $ compensation?
I think the compensation you would get is the one brake pad.
Anyway, they know the effected vehicles' VIN sequence.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Yet another person who doesn't understand this....a car WILL act normally with one brake pad for awhile as long as it is not missing the pad right at the caliper piston. The brakes actually made enough force to pass the brake tests. Building cars is like building anything else - things can and do happen. What about all the computer stuff you buy that passed the the makers tests only to fail on the customer? Same thing right or wrong.
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Yet another person who doesn't understand this....a car WILL act normally with one brake pad for awhile as long as it is not missing the pad right at the caliper piston. The brakes actually made enough force to pass the brake tests. Building cars is like building anything else - things can and do happen. What about all the computer stuff you buy that passed the the makers tests only to fail on the customer? Same thing right or wrong.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: silverrat
Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
What stops me from going out buying a brand new vehicle, taking it home and taking a brake pad out out and driving it back in hopes for $ compensation?
I think the compensation you would get is the one brake pad.
Until you threaten to go to the news with your story?
Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
What stops me from going out buying a brand new vehicle, taking it home and taking a brake pad out out and driving it back in hopes for $ compensation?
I think the compensation you would get is the one brake pad.
Until you threaten to go to the news with your story?
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: calvin1
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Yet another person who doesn't understand this....a car WILL act normally with one brake pad for awhile as long as it is not missing the pad right at the caliper piston. The brakes actually made enough force to pass the brake tests. Building cars is like building anything else - things can and do happen. What about all the computer stuff you buy that passed the the makers tests only to fail on the customer? Same thing right or wrong.
inboard pad missing: piston grinds the rotor
outboard pad missing: carrier (or whatever, there's something holding it somehow) grinds the rotor
either way you've got only 50% of the designed friction material on the rotor AND there's something almost-but-not-entirely-unlike a brake pad riding metal to metal on the other side
With your nic maybe you feel duty bound to fly the GM flag high but this is just stupid. I'm gonna watch from the sidelines from here on.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Yet another person who doesn't understand this....a car WILL act normally with one brake pad for awhile as long as it is not missing the pad right at the caliper piston. The brakes actually made enough force to pass the brake tests. Building cars is like building anything else - things can and do happen. What about all the computer stuff you buy that passed the the makers tests only to fail on the customer? Same thing right or wrong.
inboard pad missing: piston grinds the rotor
outboard pad missing: carrier (or whatever, there's something holding it somehow) grinds the rotor
either way you've got only 50% of the designed friction material on the rotor AND there's something almost-but-not-entirely-unlike a brake pad riding metal to metal on the other side
With your nic maybe you feel duty bound to fly the GM flag high but this is just stupid. I'm gonna watch from the sidelines from here on.
Originally Posted By: calvin1
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: calvin1
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Yet another person who doesn't understand this....a car WILL act normally with one brake pad for awhile as long as it is not missing the pad right at the caliper piston. The brakes actually made enough force to pass the brake tests. Building cars is like building anything else - things can and do happen. What about all the computer stuff you buy that passed the the makers tests only to fail on the customer? Same thing right or wrong.
inboard pad missing: piston grinds the rotor
outboard pad missing: carrier (or whatever, there's something holding it somehow) grinds the rotor
either way you've got only 50% of the designed friction material on the rotor AND there's something almost-but-not-entirely-unlike a brake pad riding metal to metal on the other side
With your nic maybe you feel duty bound to fly the GM flag high but this is just stupid. I'm gonna watch from the sidelines from here on.
It is not as you say. I'm watching from the sidelines too.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: calvin1
Sonic: the car with brakes so sketchy a computer can't tell if they're broken or if they're supposed to be like that.
Yet another person who doesn't understand this....a car WILL act normally with one brake pad for awhile as long as it is not missing the pad right at the caliper piston. The brakes actually made enough force to pass the brake tests. Building cars is like building anything else - things can and do happen. What about all the computer stuff you buy that passed the the makers tests only to fail on the customer? Same thing right or wrong.
inboard pad missing: piston grinds the rotor
outboard pad missing: carrier (or whatever, there's something holding it somehow) grinds the rotor
either way you've got only 50% of the designed friction material on the rotor AND there's something almost-but-not-entirely-unlike a brake pad riding metal to metal on the other side
With your nic maybe you feel duty bound to fly the GM flag high but this is just stupid. I'm gonna watch from the sidelines from here on.
It is not as you say. I'm watching from the sidelines too.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Again - the issues seems to be that the car HAD NO indications of a pad missing so how is anyone gonna pick up on it? If the outside pad is missing there is nothing gonna hit the rotor to make noise and the car stopped because the inner pad was pushed by the caliper.
Really? Its a sliding caliper. When pressure is applied to the inner pad by the piston, the outer part of the caliper is brought in to the point where one of two things happen, the piston comes out from being pushed out so far or part of caliper that outer pad rests against makes contact with rotor.
Again - the issues seems to be that the car HAD NO indications of a pad missing so how is anyone gonna pick up on it? If the outside pad is missing there is nothing gonna hit the rotor to make noise and the car stopped because the inner pad was pushed by the caliper.
Really? Its a sliding caliper. When pressure is applied to the inner pad by the piston, the outer part of the caliper is brought in to the point where one of two things happen, the piston comes out from being pushed out so far or part of caliper that outer pad rests against makes contact with rotor.
Here is the Campaign:
Service Information
2012 Chevrolet Sonic (US/Canada) | Sonic (US/Canada) Service Manual (2775) | Campaigns | Safety | Document ID: 2748952
#11354: Product Safety - Front Brake Pad Missing - (Dec 23, 2011)
Subject: 11354 – Front Brake Pad Missing
Models: 2012 Chevrolet Sonic
Condition
General Motors has decided that a defect, which relates to motor vehicle safety, exists in certain 2012 model year Chevrolet Sonic vehicles. On some of these vehicles, the front brake inner or outer pad may be missing. A missing pad could result in reduced brake system performance, require a longer distance to stop the vehicle, and produce a noise when the brakes are applied. If stopping distance is increased, a vehicle crash could occur.
Correction
Dealers are to inspect the front brakes for missing inner or outer pads. If a brake pad is missing on a vehicle in dealer inventory, dealers are to install new inner and outer pads and, as necessary, install a new brake caliper assembly and/or brake rotor. If a brake pad is missing on a vehicle delivered to the customer, dealers are to install new inner and outer pads, a new brake caliper, and a new brake rotor.
Vehicles Involved
Involved are certain 2012 model year Chevrolet Sonic vehicles.
Important: Dealers are to confirm vehicle eligibility prior to beginning repairs by using the Required Field Actions section in the Global Warranty system. Not all vehicles may be involved.
For dealers with involved vehicles, a listing with involved vehicles containing the complete vehicle identification number, customer name, and address information has been prepared and will be provided to dealers through the GM GlobalConnect Recall Reports. Dealers will not have a report available if they have no involved vehicles currently assigned.
The listing may contain customer names and addresses obtained from Motor Vehicle Registration Records. The use of such motor vehicle registration data for any purpose other than follow-up necessary to complete this recall is a violation of law in several states/provinces/countries. Accordingly, you are urged to limit the use of this report to the follow-up necessary to complete this recall.
Parts Information
A very small number of vehicles are expected to require parts. If the inspection determines that parts are required, they are to be obtained from General Motors Customer Care and Aftersales (GMCC&A). Please refer to your “involved vehicles listing” before ordering parts. Normal orders should be placed on a DRO = Daily Replenishment Order. In an emergency situation, parts should be ordered on a CSO = Customer Special Order.
Service Procedure
1. Raise and support the vehicle. Refer to Lifting and Jacking the Vehicle in SI.
Note: Tire removal is not required to inspect for the inboard and outboard brake pads.
2. Determine if the inboard and outboard brake pads are present on both front wheels.
• If the front inboard and outboard brake pads are present, no further action is required.
Note: Customer-owned vehicles require a caliper, rotor and pad replacement if pad(s) are missing. Dealer Inventory vehicles require an inspection of the rotor and caliper if pad(s) are missing. Replace only the damaged parts of the brake system.
• If any of the front brake pads are not present, replace them and any other damaged front brake system components. Refer to the appropriate brake system service procedure in SI.
Courtesy Transportation
The General Motors Courtesy Transportation program is intended to minimize customer inconvenience when a vehicle requires a repair that is covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranties. The availability of courtesy transportation to customers whose vehicles are within the warranty coverage period and involved in a product program is very important in maintaining customer satisfaction. Dealers are to ensure that these customers understand that shuttle service or some other form of courtesy transportation is available and will be provided at no charge. Dealers should refer to the General Motors Service Policies and Procedures Manual for Courtesy Transportation guidelines.
Warranty Transaction Information
Submit a transaction using the table below.
Labor Code
Description
Labor Time
Net Item
V2526
Inspect Front Brake Pads — No Further Action Required
0.2
N/A
V2527
Inspect & Replace Brake Pad(s) (inc brake bleed) (vehicles in dealer inventory)
1.0
N/A
Add
Replace Each Rotor
0.5
Add
Replace Each Caliper
0.7
V2528
Inspect & Replace Brake Pad(s), Rotor, Caliper (inc brake system bleed) (customer vehicles)
1.8
N/A
Add
Replace Second Rotor & Caliper
1.2
Customer Notification
General Motors will notify customers of this recall on their vehicle.
Dealer Recall Responsibility – For US (US States, Territories, and Possessions)
The US National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act provides that each vehicle that is subject to a recall of this type must be adequately repaired within a reasonable time after the customer has tendered it for repair. A failure to repair within sixty days after tender of a vehicle is prima facie evidence of failure to repair within a reasonable time. If the condition is not adequately repaired within a reasonable time, the customer may be entitled to an identical or reasonably equivalent vehicle at no charge or to a refund of the purchase price less a reasonable allowance for depreciation. To avoid having to provide these burdensome remedies, every effort must be made to promptly schedule an appointment with each customer and to repair their vehicle as soon as possible. In the recall notification letters, customers are told how to contact the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration if the recall is not completed within a reasonable time.
Dealer Recall Responsibility – All
All unsold new vehicles in dealers' possession and subject to this recall must be held and inspected/repaired per the service procedure of this recall bulletin before customers take possession of these vehicles.
Dealers are to service all vehicles subject to this recall at no charge to customers, regardless of mileage, age of vehicle, or ownership, from this time forward.
Customers who have recently purchased vehicles sold from your vehicle inventory, and for which there is no customer information indicated on the dealer listing, are to be contacted by the dealer. Arrangements are to be made to make the required correction according to the instructions contained in this bulletin. Recall follow-up cards should not be used for this purpose, since the customer may not as yet have received the notification letter.
In summary, whenever a vehicle subject to this recall enters your vehicle inventory, or is in your dealership for service in the future, you must take the steps necessary to be sure the recall correction has been made before selling or releasing the vehicle.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© 2011 General Motors. All rights reserved.
Service Information
2012 Chevrolet Sonic (US/Canada) | Sonic (US/Canada) Service Manual (2775) | Campaigns | Safety | Document ID: 2748952
#11354: Product Safety - Front Brake Pad Missing - (Dec 23, 2011)
Subject: 11354 – Front Brake Pad Missing
Models: 2012 Chevrolet Sonic
Condition
General Motors has decided that a defect, which relates to motor vehicle safety, exists in certain 2012 model year Chevrolet Sonic vehicles. On some of these vehicles, the front brake inner or outer pad may be missing. A missing pad could result in reduced brake system performance, require a longer distance to stop the vehicle, and produce a noise when the brakes are applied. If stopping distance is increased, a vehicle crash could occur.
Correction
Dealers are to inspect the front brakes for missing inner or outer pads. If a brake pad is missing on a vehicle in dealer inventory, dealers are to install new inner and outer pads and, as necessary, install a new brake caliper assembly and/or brake rotor. If a brake pad is missing on a vehicle delivered to the customer, dealers are to install new inner and outer pads, a new brake caliper, and a new brake rotor.
Vehicles Involved
Involved are certain 2012 model year Chevrolet Sonic vehicles.
Important: Dealers are to confirm vehicle eligibility prior to beginning repairs by using the Required Field Actions section in the Global Warranty system. Not all vehicles may be involved.
For dealers with involved vehicles, a listing with involved vehicles containing the complete vehicle identification number, customer name, and address information has been prepared and will be provided to dealers through the GM GlobalConnect Recall Reports. Dealers will not have a report available if they have no involved vehicles currently assigned.
The listing may contain customer names and addresses obtained from Motor Vehicle Registration Records. The use of such motor vehicle registration data for any purpose other than follow-up necessary to complete this recall is a violation of law in several states/provinces/countries. Accordingly, you are urged to limit the use of this report to the follow-up necessary to complete this recall.
Parts Information
A very small number of vehicles are expected to require parts. If the inspection determines that parts are required, they are to be obtained from General Motors Customer Care and Aftersales (GMCC&A). Please refer to your “involved vehicles listing” before ordering parts. Normal orders should be placed on a DRO = Daily Replenishment Order. In an emergency situation, parts should be ordered on a CSO = Customer Special Order.
Service Procedure
1. Raise and support the vehicle. Refer to Lifting and Jacking the Vehicle in SI.
Note: Tire removal is not required to inspect for the inboard and outboard brake pads.
2. Determine if the inboard and outboard brake pads are present on both front wheels.
• If the front inboard and outboard brake pads are present, no further action is required.
Note: Customer-owned vehicles require a caliper, rotor and pad replacement if pad(s) are missing. Dealer Inventory vehicles require an inspection of the rotor and caliper if pad(s) are missing. Replace only the damaged parts of the brake system.
• If any of the front brake pads are not present, replace them and any other damaged front brake system components. Refer to the appropriate brake system service procedure in SI.
Courtesy Transportation
The General Motors Courtesy Transportation program is intended to minimize customer inconvenience when a vehicle requires a repair that is covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranties. The availability of courtesy transportation to customers whose vehicles are within the warranty coverage period and involved in a product program is very important in maintaining customer satisfaction. Dealers are to ensure that these customers understand that shuttle service or some other form of courtesy transportation is available and will be provided at no charge. Dealers should refer to the General Motors Service Policies and Procedures Manual for Courtesy Transportation guidelines.
Warranty Transaction Information
Submit a transaction using the table below.
Labor Code
Description
Labor Time
Net Item
V2526
Inspect Front Brake Pads — No Further Action Required
0.2
N/A
V2527
Inspect & Replace Brake Pad(s) (inc brake bleed) (vehicles in dealer inventory)
1.0
N/A
Add
Replace Each Rotor
0.5
Add
Replace Each Caliper
0.7
V2528
Inspect & Replace Brake Pad(s), Rotor, Caliper (inc brake system bleed) (customer vehicles)
1.8
N/A
Add
Replace Second Rotor & Caliper
1.2
Customer Notification
General Motors will notify customers of this recall on their vehicle.
Dealer Recall Responsibility – For US (US States, Territories, and Possessions)
The US National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act provides that each vehicle that is subject to a recall of this type must be adequately repaired within a reasonable time after the customer has tendered it for repair. A failure to repair within sixty days after tender of a vehicle is prima facie evidence of failure to repair within a reasonable time. If the condition is not adequately repaired within a reasonable time, the customer may be entitled to an identical or reasonably equivalent vehicle at no charge or to a refund of the purchase price less a reasonable allowance for depreciation. To avoid having to provide these burdensome remedies, every effort must be made to promptly schedule an appointment with each customer and to repair their vehicle as soon as possible. In the recall notification letters, customers are told how to contact the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration if the recall is not completed within a reasonable time.
Dealer Recall Responsibility – All
All unsold new vehicles in dealers' possession and subject to this recall must be held and inspected/repaired per the service procedure of this recall bulletin before customers take possession of these vehicles.
Dealers are to service all vehicles subject to this recall at no charge to customers, regardless of mileage, age of vehicle, or ownership, from this time forward.
Customers who have recently purchased vehicles sold from your vehicle inventory, and for which there is no customer information indicated on the dealer listing, are to be contacted by the dealer. Arrangements are to be made to make the required correction according to the instructions contained in this bulletin. Recall follow-up cards should not be used for this purpose, since the customer may not as yet have received the notification letter.
In summary, whenever a vehicle subject to this recall enters your vehicle inventory, or is in your dealership for service in the future, you must take the steps necessary to be sure the recall correction has been made before selling or releasing the vehicle.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© 2011 General Motors. All rights reserved.
Campaign doesn't include anything that hasn't already been discussed in this thread.
So apparently the caliper slides had a limited range of motion, enough to compensate for a missing outer brake pad. The caliper itself had enough beef to stop the car using 1 brake pad.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
Campaign doesn't include anything that hasn't already been discussed in this thread.
It shows the FACTS. Most of the discussion here was OPINION.
People are speculating on how it could have had happen. Campaign shows what facts? "the front brake inner or outer pad may be missing."...oh don't tell me how many investigations had to be done to come up with that? It still doesn't explain how it came about.
Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
Campaign doesn't include anything that hasn't already been discussed in this thread.
It shows the FACTS. Most of the discussion here was OPINION.
People are speculating on how it could have had happen. Campaign shows what facts? "the front brake inner or outer pad may be missing."...oh don't tell me how many investigations had to be done to come up with that? It still doesn't explain how it came about.
Originally Posted By: ComfyShorts
People are speculating on how it could have had happen. Campaign shows what facts? "the front brake inner or outer pad may be missing."...oh don't tell me how many investigations had to be done to come up with that? It still doesn't explain how it came about.
I work at a tier 1 OEM that makes fuel system parts for major car makers...when we run a series of processes to make a part there are automatic computerized checks using sensors to
"witness" that a process has been completed, if the whole of the component is missing a piece or subpart the system will reject it from moving onto the next series of processes, this is a automated witness mark if you will.
Can someone who knows about final assembly lines for brake systems at a plant chime in about the witness/checking process?
People are speculating on how it could have had happen. Campaign shows what facts? "the front brake inner or outer pad may be missing."...oh don't tell me how many investigations had to be done to come up with that? It still doesn't explain how it came about.
I work at a tier 1 OEM that makes fuel system parts for major car makers...when we run a series of processes to make a part there are automatic computerized checks using sensors to
"witness" that a process has been completed, if the whole of the component is missing a piece or subpart the system will reject it from moving onto the next series of processes, this is a automated witness mark if you will.
Can someone who knows about final assembly lines for brake systems at a plant chime in about the witness/checking process?
This could only be the handy work of a joint venture between the US government and the union.
Unbelievable. Inexcusable. Government Motors.
I am shorting GM stock asap.
Unbelievable. Inexcusable. Government Motors.
I am shorting GM stock asap.
Originally Posted By: rk1407
This could only be the handy work of a joint venture between the US government and the union.
Unbelievable. Inexcusable. Government Motors.
I am shorting GM stock asap.
Not sure if troll.
This could only be the handy work of a joint venture between the US government and the union.
Unbelievable. Inexcusable. Government Motors.
I am shorting GM stock asap.
Not sure if troll.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
