So should we buy "American" after all?

[K-Man]

With the news of Ford's plant closures in 2008 in Norfolk, Virginia, and St. Paul, Minnesota, and now news of more to come in 2010-2012, not to mention GM's ongoing plant closures, here's a question to ponder. Keep your answers to the point and don't insert politics or bashing, as I think the question deserves serious consideration and discussion.

Toyota, Honda, and other manufacturers traditionally thought of as "foreign" are building plants here, hiring American suppliers to build parts for their vehicles, and hiring American workers to build these vehicles. At the same time, the traditionally "American" manufacturers are closing plants and outsourcing, laying off thousands of American workers in the process. The Chevrolet Equinox/Pontiac Torrent SUV has a Chinese-made engine, for example, and the local newspaper recently pointed out that the US-built Honda Accord has more domestic content than the "all-American" Ford Mustang. Also consider GM's and Ford's ongoing quality and product woes and complaints, while Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., go from strength to strength with their products.

So now the question: Does it continue to make sense to buy from GM and Ford when they are eliminating jobs here, and shouldn't we instead consider buying cars from foreign manufacturers that invest here and employ more and more Americans?

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Free to choose. The essence of our system.

 

[wileyE]

In large scale production it's more HOW you do business than WHERE you do it. Labor cost's are a lot smaller factor in the whole sceme of things than some would have you believe. Modern auto factorys are not labor intensive anymore. If one man can run a high production robotic machine the difference in whether he's paid $25 or $5 an hour is minimal compared to the value of the output of his work. just my 02.

 

[labman]

Brauuuuuuugh, brauuuuuuugh, brauuuuuuugh. That is my nonsense detector going off. Ford and GM still average far higher domestic content than Honda and Toyota. Honda and Toyota support near zip in the way of retired Americans. In fact older worker in Japan are throw on the scrap heap forced into lower paying jobs with suppliers.

Oh, and can you direct me to an objective study showing the imports have higher quality? None of the brainwashed CU stuff.

 

[Drew99GT]

The only "objective" study I need is personal experience. 4 GMs, 4 blown intake gaskets with one loosing a motor. I'll support American workers and buy imports

 

[motorguy222]

It was stated that Toyota etc. use suppliers that are domestic for parts in their US factories.

This may or may not be true.

It seems that many if not most of the so called 'domestic' factories that Toyota,Honda etc. use are actually Japanese based companies.

I live in a state that has a Toyota plant.If one looks at the many companies that are used by Toyota as a supplier,they will most likely find that these companies are based in Japan or Asia.

In my region,there is a gear supplier for Honda,it is a company based out of Japan,Asia.

In my town there is a Tokica,KI USA and a steel plant,all of which are Asian.

The idea that Honda etc. uses domestic suppliers can be very misleading.

 

[sxg6]

Here is a link to a thread similar to this one if anyone is interested.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=003717;p=1

 

[Kestas]

While visiting Chrysler plants that produce parts for American cars, I saw a lot of machinery that was imported, mainly from Germany. This was at a time when our "Buy American" campaign was in full swing. Why should the public buy American if the automakers don't?.... very hypocritical!

 

[cousincletus]

GM employs more Americans than all the foreign transplants combined, even with the layoffs. Profits stay in the USA and corporate taxes are paid here. FWIW I've had good service from GM and Chrysler over the last 25+ years. The import owners I know have more complicated and expensive problems than I ever had on a domestic.

 

[keith]

What is a domestic anyway? My Dodge Caravan that is made in Canada, by a formerly US company that is now HQ'd in Germany to escape high US business taxes?

A Toyota Camry made in Kentucky USA is more American than my Dodge minivan.

I do agree that there are some good cars made by what you traditionally call domestic, i.e. Ford, GM, and many of those are made in the US. Chrysler is now German and as far as I am concerned, they are as domestic as Honda and Toyota.

Closing old plants isn't necessarily a bad thing, if they build more modern plants in their place (even if in a different location). When market share shrinks, and there are thousands getting full pay to sit at home (job banks), cuts have to be made elsewhere. It's a little crazy for sure.

Wait and see what happens when the Chinese cars start flooding in.

 

[michaelc80]

It's amazing to me that a lot of people don't realize that the line between "domestic" and "foreign" is very fuzzy. Even though some will argue that the profits go back to the location of the company headquarters, so what? Much of that gets redistributed to the shareholders of the company. A portion of my 401K is invested overseas, so as those companies prosper, so do I. It's interesting to note however, that none of my 401K money is invested in GM or Ford (to my knowledge).

As far as corporate taxes, I'd much prefer to have the tax base of the factory and workers here than the tax on the profits (which can be hidden or manipulated).

As far as supporting retirements, how about the individual employee planning for his or her own retirement rather than depending on the company to provide for them? With people living longer retirement at 65 is a foolish, outdated notion anyway. Why get rid of some of the most experienced, talented work pool just because they reach a certain age? I'll fend for myself, thank you. Just keep your hand out of my pocket once I build my own wealth.

It's time for a lot of people with the 1950's mentality to wake up and realize that we're in a global economy and we need to be players, not whiners. Things have changed while you've been sleeping. I keep hearing the shrill phrases like "level playing field" and "unfair advantages". Let's face it people, there is no such thing as a level playing field. And for everyones disadvantage they have an advantage elsewhere. We need to focus less on our disadvantages and more on our advantages.

I'll purchase from whomever provides the highest quality product that will suit my needs. Right now it's 2 "foreign" vehicles and 1 "domestic" vehicle. Each one suited my needs the best when I purchased it and I have no complaints about quality from any of them. By the way-both foreign vehicles were 100% foreign content while the domestic was estimated to be about 20% if I remember my figures correctly.

 

[Schmoe]

Hmmmm....maybe if the domestic suppliers got Honda good metal for their transmission bearings and 2nd gear clutch packages, the 6th gen. transmissions would have been better....

 

[The_Jeff]

I figure current retirees' pensions should have been financed from the sale of 1975 Vegas or whatever they assembled back then. I will not be guilted in to buying American just to support my elderly neighbor. That would be asking me to pick up where management left off... or slithered out.

That that cost was hidden back then, or they assumed they'd have the same market share 30 years later, is still their problem. Management signed those contracts with the workers and have to follow through.

I'll still base my purchasing decision on the quality/value of the cars regardless of local content or how many golfers I'm supporting.

 

[Gary Allan]

is still their problem. Management signed those contracts with the workers and have to follow through.


.but I doubt that they will. They will default and go bankrupt and a big political mess will be created that will have us, via pension insurance programs, paying the % that is determined to be "fair". The pensioner gets screwed ..the public gets screwed ..and there will be golden parachutes galore. This is happening to any large manufacturing concern.

It's engineered to let them out of it and leave us with the bill.

I say before one officer or accountant gets a dime ..the assets are distributed for deferred compensation to the contracted agreements. It won't work that way ...sorta like the S&L crisis ..we bailed ...all the shareholders in the given bankrupt savings and loans walked out 100% untouched

 

[thooks]

I'll bet that Ford and GM have many more plants in China than Honda & Toyota does.

 

[Win]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Ron:
Win, I've known Jewish people who drive Mercedes and BMW. I also know a WWII bomber pilot, who flew over Tokyo time and time again, who loves his Nissan cars. People let it go at some point.

---

LOL, I know people like that also.

I can't help but think of the other threads where people really have it in for GM and Ford because they got a crappy car. Think they will will ever let it go at some point? My money would be on no ....

 

[Win]

quote:

---

Originally posted by thooks:
I'll bet that Ford and GM have many more plants in China than Honda & Toyota does.

---

A bit off topic, but that little thing called WWII, that Rape of Nanking thing, Shanghai, and other well documented atrocities, probably does not leave Japan in a very high position of esteem in China.

 

[Win]

Life is pretty short, I say buy whatever suits your needs or makes you happy, even if it's a Honda ....

That said, I support domestic companies whenever possible; I have two domestic built Chevy's, and my three imports, two Jags and a GTO, answer back to Ford and GM. The GTO even has about 20% domestic content.

I don't accept as true the proposition, often advanced here, that buying products manufactured here by foreign corporations is equivalent to buying products manufactured here by doemstic corporations. I suppose if all you care about is picking up a paycheck, then it doesn't matter who writes it, but I prefer the profits stay here.

What really disgusts me is the way States fall all over themselves to give away tax breaks and other incentives to induce the location of auto plants in an area. Perhaps they do this for domestic manufacturers also, but I only hear about it with regard to foreign manufacturers.

I don't think these new jobs are any great bargain to anybody but the subsidized employer.

 

[Evil Ron]

Win, I've known Jewish people who drive Mercedes and BMW. I also know a WWII bomber pilot, who flew over Tokyo time and time again, who loves his Nissan cars. People let it go at some point.

 

[PandaBear]

All the US and foreign company that I have worked for has department and part sourced from all over the world. The design, quality, reliability has more to do with which company and which division than the country of origin. Many American company still make good product, but just not in the state. The one that solely rely on "made in USA" logo and sell only craps do not deserve my business.

And again, in auto industry, the main reason GM, Ford, and Chrysler are not doing well is not because they are in the US while imports are made in Japan. Japanese made car cost more and are selling for more because of either the perception that American cars got in the past, or Japan is doing well in these area in terms of precision or reliability. I know that American cars are doing much better now than in the past, but when they are losing $1-3k per car because of a union death pack they signed and benefited in the past, why should we pick up the tab.

If I were to support local economy, I would buy Toyota rather than GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Toyota has a plant locally in Fremont but the other 3 has none. If I were to buy a car that has the most resale value, then I would still not buy American. If I were to buy the best bang for the buck and the big 3 are giving out $5000 cash back on a $17000 car, then well, it's too good to skip.'

Business is a battle, you can survive for a short time on sympathy. We can all do the buy American and save GM for a couple of months, but if their business model, cost, and labor union is are not working, then they will die regardless of what we do.