So, Fram filters...why the bad rap?

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: bammer5609
I have used Purolator, Ford OEM, Canadian tire brand, Quakerstate, and Bosch, and Fram.
By "Ford OEM" I assume you're referring to Motorcraft? True Ford OEM filters, the ones they put on the cars at the factory, are very different and are not sold to the public.

 

[bammer5609]

Yes, Ford Motorcraft. I guess the "Fram" anything topics will never die.

 

[Dallas69]

I will never understand why all the Fram haters on here think they know more about the construction of a filter than the guys at Fram who have been doing it their way for many decades.
If you dont like Fram filters then buy something else
Its pretty simple
It is really silly to act like you are an expert on what is the one and only way that a filter shoud be built and any other way is wrong

 

[SilverC6]

Everyone responded negatively in this thread because the OP with 17 posts asked the following troll question......

"FRAM filters.....why the bad rap?"

I don't believe anyone here hates FRAM.

And now that most of the FRAM marketing folks seem to be gone from this forum, some honest opinion may return to this discussion.

 

[ThirdeYe]

I generally used to avoid Fram filters, favoring Purolators in most instances. However, I did buy a few from time to time if I saw them on sale/clearance. Now, however, after seeing Purolator tears with my own eyes and realizing how efficient Fram filters really are, I've since purchased a bunch of Fram filters and I'm currently using them on a couple of vehicles I maintain. I even bought some for my Integra and my Firebird for future changes once my stash is depleted. I also appreciate Motorking's responses on this forum. It's nice that their company actually seems to care, unlike another company that has their head in the sand.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
It is hilarious to watch people run purolator classics until kingdom come then cry when one pleat tears...one pleat! But if you bash Fram OCODs, my goodness, the whole Fram community comes down on you. It is cyclical. Looking through old threads, it is apparent that people will bash fram, then purolator, then something else comes along as the flavor of the weeek and that will be the new "can of death!"


Judging by one of your previous posts, you choose not to run Fram because the insides get wet. I don't consider that bashing.. Most here consider that being uneducated.



Calm down spin doctor, I was speaking to the durability of carboard/fiberboard/construction paper when it gets wet, not the fact that it gets wet in general...

 

[Brian Barnhart]

In an earlier post, I mentioned the use of the thin cardboard endcaps as alignment for the media and ADBV. I've added some pics below to illustrate the points.

Here is a pic of the inside of a baseplate used on a Fram Extra Guard filter. The Tough Guard is the same. The baseplate has no features to align the ADBV relative to the inlet holes. In this Fram design, the alignment of the ADBV is controlled solely by the media's position within the can.

Here is a pic of the media inside the can, in this case a Tough Guard. The only features locating the media (and therefore the ADBV) are the tips of the thin cardboard endcaps. These endcaps are thin, weak, and very easily bent.

Here is a pic of the ADBV on top of the base. The Tough Guard is the same shape made from silicone. Since the ADBV is not held securely by the base plate, I moved it slightly off center to highlight the importance of ADBV positioning. You can see light through one of the inlet holes (red arrow).

If the condition pictured below occurs inside the filter, two undesirable things occur. The ADBV leaks , and a portion of the oil bypasses the filter media.

Here's a pic better illustrating the amount of misalignment of the ADBV in the previous picture. This amount of misalignment is probably less than 0.1”. I'm not certain if the Fram design will permit this much misalignment.

Here's a picture of the type of ADBV alignment used in other filters. The steel ring in the center of the baseplate serves to locate both the ADBV and media within the can.

In my view, the particulars illustrated above are part of why Frams get a “bad rap”. I've used Fram filters like those pictured above over the years. In some applications I had noticably more start-up noise. That suggests to me that the ADBV was less than optimum since other filters did not exhibit the same behavior.

Your results may vary.

I have had nothing but good performance from the Ultra Guard and (now) Ultra Synthetic, which feature somewhat different construction.

 

[edhackett]

Your second picture down shows why I will not use a fiber end cap Fram. At the 4:30 position you can see that the center tube is misaligned. This compromises the seal at that point. I've seen pictures and had one personally where the pleats had buckled and the end caps pulled down enough to show a definite leak at the bypass end. Some off center tubes don't seem to cause a problem and the marks from the ADBV or bypass piece show the seal may have been OK, some show the seal clearly compromised.

I choose my oil filters based on known failure modes and lack of sensitivity to minor manufacturing errors. Fram fiber end cap filters, E-Cores, and now Purolator filters have demonstrated failure modes that are not seen in other designs. I don't buy them.

Ed

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: jk_636
It is hilarious to watch people run purolator classics until kingdom come then cry when one pleat tears...one pleat! But if you bash Fram OCODs, my goodness, the whole Fram community comes down on you. It is cyclical. Looking through old threads, it is apparent that people will bash fram, then purolator, then something else comes along as the flavor of the weeek and that will be the new "can of death!"


Judging by one of your previous posts, you choose not to run Fram because the insides get wet. I don't consider that bashing.. Most here consider that being uneducated.



Calm down spin doctor, I was speaking to the durability of carboard/fiberboard/construction paper when it gets wet, not the fact that it gets wet in general...


Cellulose paper media gets wet. It's what it's designed to do.

 

[Dallas69]

So now you guys resort to cutting open a filter to manipulate what might happen
Amazing

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
So now you guys resort to cutting open a filter to manipulate what might happen
Amazing


I dont follow

How is that manipulating results?

 

[SilverC6]

It would be good if Brian Barnhart's post could be a sticky in the oil filter section of the forum.

With clarity, it illustrates the critical talking points that are the basis of recurring FRAM OCOD discussions.

 

[bammer5609]

I don't' want to offend, but just out of curiosity Brian, what sort of engineering background do you have? I look at it and see pictures and people are making judgements based on what they see. Going to the end caps, why is the filter media, which sees the oil also, so much more stronger then the end caps? How much movement dose the filter media have in service that can cause it to get so worn that it doesn't work properly? I will grant this, this is not a high milage filter, it is never marketed as one, but it is a design that has been around for decades.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
He's not talking about micarta.

Instead, he's talking about the flimsy, easily distorted end caps on some FRAM filters.





Oh. You mean that fibreboard that is encased in either a metal can,which acts as the frame and that flimsiness may even be an asset because it may help improve the ability to conform and thereby creating a more positive seal,or it an element that's is installed in a frame made for it.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: bammer5609
I don't' want to offend, but just out of curiosity Brian, what sort of engineering background do you have? I look at it and see pictures and people are making judgements based on what they see. Going to the end caps, why is the filter media, which sees the oil also, so much more stronger then the end caps? How much movement dose the filter media have in service that can cause it to get so worn that it doesn't work properly? I will grant this, this is not a high milage filter, it is never marketed as one, but it is a design that has been around for decades.


Not to offend, but I will come to Brians aid on this one. What does it matter if he has an engineering background or not? this point is absolutely irrelevant. It looks to me like he has the ability to make opinions based on his own observations. We are all (with a few exceptions) in the same boat. Very few people here are engineers, chemists and the sort, but we all meet to talk about oil, filters, parts etc.

So he doesn't like the cardboard endcaps. You ask if he has an engineering background why? So you can parrot back the old, "how can you know better than the engineers at Fram" argument right? Perhaps...just maybe....Fram uses carboard not because it is more efficient but because it is CHEAPER! Some people see a risk, some dont. This is what makes market share so diverse.

 

[bammer5609]

That is exactly why Fram uses them, they are cheaper, and when you manufacture millions of them, that is a lot of money saved. Is it a bad thing, nope, they seem to work just fine. As I said, I never meant anything toward Brian, I am just saying that just because a person sees something that they do not like dose not make the end product they are looking at any worse then any other similar product.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

My comments should be judged in light of the original question. I tried to illustrate, with the help of pictures, why Fram filters often get a “bad rap”. My thoughts are just an attempt to answer that question and aren't meant to be the end-all of the discussion or some sort of “proof” that Fram makes lousy oil filters.

Several years ago I started cutting open filters after being exposed to this site and some of the information here. I cut open filters from most of the brands commonly available and found it interesting to compare the designs. In the last 10 years or so I've continued to cut open my used filters, mainly to look for metal particles or anything else that may indicate an issue with the engine. This also allows me to see how much dirt is being trapped, how well the filter holds up and, in some cases, see how the filter designs evolve.

It's interesting to see the cleverness of some designs, especially some of the ones from Champion Labs. The “clicker” bypass was a way to incorporate a bypass valve into a filter at essentially no extra cost. I believe it was abandoned long ago. Their Ecore also incorporated some interesting features, including a one-piece combination ADBV and bypass valve. It also used a material on the endcaps capable of filtering, adding very slightly to the total filtering area of the media.

In cutting open my used filters over the years, I've seen a few torn pleats and split media seams, as well as loose endcaps that were no longer secured to the media. But other than excessive start-up noise, I've never had occasion to remove a filter because it caused some sort of problem.

I've owned several engines (Jeep and Ford) that came with oil filters featuring front end bypass valves. In those applications, I generally limit my filter choices to those that include that feature. I've used filters with dome end bypass valves on those engines without any failures (as have millions of others), so it's obviously not a must-have feature. But there are reasons behind the front-end bypass location, and I prefer to use filters with them in those applications.

Having worked for companies in the automotive industry, I've seen first hand their cost control measures. Great effort is spent trying to reduce product material and assembly costs because of the volumes involved. There's little doubt that the front end bypass valves used in factory installed filters cost more than many of the dome end bypass valve designs available. And knowing the auto industry's thirst for cost savings, there is no way they would spend extra money (even a few pennies) on a more expensive oil filter unless it was deemed necessary.

Tear-downs of competitive products are common in industry. Cutting filters open is no different and I believe things can be learned from the exercise. It's not a substitute for real testing, but it does allow one to see potential areas of weakness, room for improvement, and can spur new ideas and designs. Of course tear-downs can also be used for marketing purposes.

I am an engineer (Electrical). Most recently I've been involved in Aerospace, but have spent several years since 1981 working for companies in the automotive business. But since I've never been involved with oil filter design I don't know that those facts add all that much to the discussion.

 

[bammer5609]

Instead of shooting the same topic over and over, the question here is, why all the flak on a product that has been used for decades and has proven to just plain work?

Yes, Fram uses different end caps and ADBV is their base filters. They market it as a 5000km oil filter, so treat it as one. On long intervals it may have a greater chance at failure, but its failure rate when used as marketed is probably no worse then any other filter on the market.

Are people afraid that their motor will blow up if they use a Fram? Oil filters have such a low failure rate(that causes engine damage) compared to, say, transmissions, considered how many oil changes a vehicle will see in its lifetime. Yes, filter media will tear, but, engines keep on going. It is actually amazing how much abuse an engine can take and still go for years and years.

It just seems that every couple of weeks someone posts something about "why are Frams so bad". I would just like to see a "just cut open a brand XXXX filter, here are the pics" and just leave it at that, don't re-engineer the wheel based on what you see.

 

[Bud]

I have been changing my own oil and filters for 51 years. The first 40 of those I used the OCOD as my filter. Used all kinds of oil, and mixed oils as well. I can't believe I am still alive. I mean, I probably should have been taken out by an exploding engine or something. I guess I was just living on the edge. But gotta say, I do love this forum.

 

[jcwit]

A voice of reason from the masses!

Actually two.