Smaller Oil Filter & Mann Hummel Equivalents?

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The first flaw in you logic (well after assuming that I don’t understand oiling systems) is that you seem to have assumed that a smaller filter is automatically more restrictive.


The first flaw in your response is you missed a critical statement in my quote:

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A bogus claim, a smaller oil filter will not increase engine oil pressure. If anything, it will decrease oil pressure at near redline when the pump hits pressure relief because it most likely has a bit more flow resistance compared to the same filter in a larger size.


You can’t say the claim is bogus and then qualify your statement that it is bogus by adding additional caveats not in the original claim.

You said the claim is bogus, I’m simply asking you to prove it. I make no claim either way.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
The first flaw in you logic (well after assuming that I don’t understand oiling systems) is that you seem to have assumed that a smaller filter is automatically more restrictive.


The first flaw in your response is you missed a critical statement in my quote:

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A bogus claim, a smaller oil filter will not increase engine oil pressure. If anything, it will decrease oil pressure at near redline when the pump hits pressure relief because it most likely has a bit more flow resistance compared to the same filter in a larger size.


You can’t say the claim is bogus and then qualify your statement that it is bogus by adding additional caveats not in the original claim.

You said the claim is bogus, I’m simply asking you to prove it. I make no claim either way.

Go read my first post again. I haven't added any additional caveats.

So you think/believe a much smaller sized Ultra is going to increase oil pressure and be a better filter for high engine RPM use when compared to a larger sized Ultra?

 

[DuckRyder]

Sigh - so you can’t back it up - gotcha.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Sigh - so you can’t back it up - gotcha.

I don't have to back up anything because what I said is accurate, and you didn't answer my question for some reason. You have something to backup the claim that tiny filters increase oil pressure and are better for high RPM use beside some "Amazon review"?

Same filter brand with same media, which one is going to "give better oil pressure at high RPM" if the pump hits pressure relief? A tiny small sized filter or a much larger sized filter?

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Sigh - so you can’t back it up - gotcha.

I don't have to back up anything because what I said is accurate, and you didn't answer my question for some reason. You have something to backup the claim that tiny filters increase oil pressure and are better for high RPM use beside some "Amazon review"?

Same filter brand with same media, which one is going to "give better oil pressure at high RPM" if the pump hits pressure relief? A tiny small sized filter or a much larger sized filter?


I already said that I make no claim either way, so I don’t have to answer your question again.

I said that there were claims that the HAMP shorty filter increases oil pressure and is better for high RPM engines. You said that was a bogus claim. I (nor the people making the claim) said anything about the media being the same.

Whether the HAMP shorty filter does something and whether smaller filters in general (or otherwise identical filters of differing sizes) do something are completely different conversations.

What I have a problem with here specifically is “bogus”. We don’t know that the claim about HAMPs shorty filter is “bogus” and you haven’t supported the claim with respect to HAMP and “bogus". It seems to me that you don’t believe the claim and have given your reasons why you don’t believe the claim, but you’ve introduced conditions not present in the original claim.

This is super simple and I don’t understand why you seemingly can’t make the distinction.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I already said that I make no claim either way, so I don’t have to answer your question again.

You never answered it in the first place.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I said that there were claims that the HAMP shorty filter increases oil pressure and is better for high RPM engines. You said that was a bogus claim. I (nor the people making the claim) said anything about the media being the same.

Whether the HAMP shorty filter does something and whether smaller filters in general (or otherwise identical filters of differing sizes) do something are completely different conversations.

What I have a problem with here specifically is “bogus”. We don’t know that the claim about HAMPs shorty filter is “bogus” and you haven’t supported the claim with respect to HAMP and “bogus". It seems to me that you don’t believe the claim and have given your reasons why you don’t believe the claim, but you’ve introduced conditions not present in the original claim.

This is super simple and I don’t understand why you seemingly can’t make the distinction.


Yes, it is super simple. The only way a smaller sized filter is going to be "better for high engine RPM and give better oil pressure" is if it has a chicken wire screen inside.

So anyone who believe this claim, make sure you downsize your filter as much as possible on your race cars.

 

[DuckRyder]

Yep, when you make statements that you can’t back up, deflect.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So you must think this claim is true if you get so bent out of shape just because I say it's bogus. I have my reasons as already stated to why I say it's a bogus claim. It doesn't take much logic to know a smaller filter with the same media is going to have more delta-p at high engine RPM and therefore will be worse for flow and hence oil pressure. I still stand by my claim that someone is making that statement because they don't understand oil filters and oiling systems. If you make no claim one way or the other, then why do you keep trying to debate this?

I've got my opinion and stand by it unless someone sends in a thimble sized and large sized filter of the same brand for flow vs delta-p testing, and the results show the thimble sized filter out flows the big filter. I already know which one will flow better.

Time to agree to disagree.

 

[DuckRyder]

Let us try this another way, I’m not quite ready to give up on you yet.

If the HAMP shorty filter does in fact have a chicken wire screen in it (or something similar), is it possible that the claim that it increases oil pressure and is better for high RPM engines is not bogus? (conceding that “better” is a relative term)

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Let us try this another way, I’m not quite ready to give up on you yet.

If the HAMP shorty filter does in fact have a chicken wire screen in it (or something similar), is it possible that the claim that it increases oil pressure and is better for high RPM engines is not bogus? (conceding that “better” is a relative term)


Go back an re-read, I already said that in so many words a couple of times.

My premise ever since my first comment about this (go back and read) was that both filters are the same media.

So yeah, If the HEMP is a hollow can or has chicken wire inside then it might flow better than a large filter that has good flowing media. But the HEMP isn't hollow or have a chicken wire element, so until someone with lab data (vs some comment on Amazon) that shows a small HEMP flows better than a much larger filter I'll have to stick by my opinion.

 

[DuckRyder]

OK,


I remain confused about why the same media comes into the conversation when it wasn’t included in the original claim, but I’m prepared to let it go at this point.

For the record, I think it is highly unlikely that two otherwise identical filters of differing sizes would produce appreciably different oil pressures, certainly nothing like 5lbs claimed, particular considering that the actual size difference isn’t very great.


So, OP, did we scare you off?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
OK,

I remain confused about why the same media comes into the conversation when it wasn’t included in the original claim, but I’m prepared to let it go at this point.

For the record, I think it is highly unlikely that two otherwise identical filters of differing sizes would produce appreciably different oil pressures, certainly nothing like 5lbs claimed, particular considering that the actual size difference isn’t very great.

Who claimed anything about 5 lbs anywhere in this thread?

My original premise was same filter material, but less of it due to being inside a smaller filter is going to have more pressure drop across it. And that is will not be "better for high RPM use and give better oil pressure" - actually quite the opposite. Again, I'll stick by my original statement all day long because it's a true statement.

You're going on a merry-go-ride now and just going in circles.

 

[DuckRyder]

That is another part of the claim.

You know I was prepared to let it go. but you’re not this dumb, so you must be being intentionally obtuse.

You made what amounts to two original claims.

You claim that the claim about HAMP filters shorty increasing oil pressure and being better for high RPM engines was bogus. You can’t back that up one way or the other and you’re trying to deflect attention from your unproven statement by talking about me.

You then claimed that "a smaller oil filter will not increase engine oil pressure. If anything, it will decrease oil pressure at near redline when the pump hits pressure relief because it most likely has a bit more flow resistance compared to the same filter in a larger size.” I’ve never had much of a problem with that one.

 

[UberArchetype]

Assuming 2 filters of equal efficiency running the same oil in the same engines under the same circumstances, the larger will always flow more longer. That is just hydrodynamics 101. Pressure drop occurs over time and happens more quickly in the smaller filter. That is simply all there is to it.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: UberArchetype
Assuming 2 filters of equal efficiency running the same oil in the same engines under the same circumstances, the larger will always flow more longer. That is just hydrodynamics 101. Pressure drop occurs over time and happens more quickly in the smaller filter. That is simply all there is to it.


Assuming the elements have different surface areas and depths. Wide, huge, variations in those in the exact same outer can sizes. People compare can sizes and in a lot of cases one filter of a smaller size actually has more media than the larger. Seems sort of obvious but I see people assuming larger can means more filtering media quite often.

 

[UberArchetype]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Seems sort of obvious but I see people assuming larger can means more filtering media quite often.

Sorry I forgot to account for a variable. Let's just say EVERYTHING is same except the size of the filter, OK?

I'm putting a larger, more efficient filter with the same bypass pressure on the wife's new VW later today. I'm pretty confident it's a good idea.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: UberArchetype
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Seems sort of obvious but I see people assuming larger can means more filtering media quite often.

Sorry I forgot to account for a variable. Let's just say EVERYTHING is same except the size of the filter, OK?

I'm putting a larger, more efficient filter with the same bypass pressure on the wife's new VW later today. I'm pretty confident it's a good idea.

Comment NOT directed at you personally. You are correct. Just saying over and over I see people saying they are putting a larger filter on, assuming the media is larger inside.

 

[UberArchetype]

No biggie. I believe the main point to this thread is illuminating the different aspects of oil filter size - a GOOD thing. It's not really complicated, but sometimes people go off on tangents arguing about minutiae that isn't quite relevant. I only entered the thread because I was thinking about it myself beforehand.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
That is another part of the claim.

You know I was prepared to let it go. but you’re not this dumb, so you must be being intentionally obtuse.

You made what amounts to two original claims.


I made one original claim. You seemed to have miss the part in red, and have been off in the weeds ever since.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A bogus claim, a smaller oil filter will not increase engine oil pressure. If anything, it will decrease oil pressure at near redline when the pump hits pressure relief because it most likely has a bit more flow resistance compared to the same filter in a larger size.


Then as time went on, it was clarified for you that the part in red means the same exact filter brand with the same media, but in a larger sized filter meaning it has more media inside. And to clarify to prevent anyone from have an aneurysm, that means more media area, not a rare case where a bigger can has a tiny element inside and has less media. I even asked you specifically as follows to help you understand this. But you never gave an answer to the simple question.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So you think/believe a much smaller sized Ultra is going to increase oil pressure and be a better filter for high engine RPM use when compared to a larger sized Ultra?

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Same filter brand with same media, which one is going to "give better oil pressure at high RPM" if the pump hits pressure relief? A tiny small sized filter or a much larger sized filter?



Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
You claim that the claim about HAMP filters shorty increasing oil pressure and being better for high RPM engines was bogus. You can’t back that up one way or the other and you’re trying to deflect attention from your unproven statement by talking about me.


I'm not "deflecting", I'm trying to make you understand what I meant in my original comment. But you've taken that and misconstrued and have been trying to go off on multiple tangents. You even then come back with that maybe the HAMP has super low flow resistance, and I made the qualifier that yes, if the can was hollow or had chicken wire for a filter element that it's possible it might flow better than a much larger filter. We've been over this a couple of times now.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
You then claimed that "a smaller oil filter will not increase engine oil pressure. If anything, it will decrease oil pressure at near redline when the pump hits pressure relief because it most likely has a bit more flow resistance compared to the same filter in a larger size.” I’ve never had much of a problem with that one.


If you don't have a problem with that then you shouldn't have a problem with my original comment in the first place - because that was my original comment. And if you "never had much of a problem with that one" then why are you still trying to debate this?

Like I already said ... time to agree to disagree. You're not going to change my original opinion because there is no proof that a tiny filter vs a larger filter with the same exact media is going to give better oil flow and oil pressure than the larger filter. If that was actually true, people would be talking about downsizing their oil filters instead of up sizing them.

 

[JaCkaL829]

Wow, that's a lot of back and fourth over the small vs large filter, didn't realize it would get that intense lol.

As I said earlier in this thread, I had no intention in using a smaller filter, was just surprised that a quick lube would use it, but I guess this isn't too uncommon.

The real reason behind the thread was to determine a good filter to use, and how far the Mann/Hummel filter reached. I know they own most of the companies I've looked into, but not sure what that means in difference in terms of filters.

I didn't mention this in my inital post but my truck suffers a small chatter (maybe 1-2 secs.) at startup very randomly. I have a 2012 Nissan Frontier VQ40DE 4.0. From everything I read online and forums this is a relatively 'normal' thing that many people have experienced. I would get it randomly, with varying loudness. My truck is out of warranty, and I don't have faith they the problem would be easily reproduced, and how much I should be concerned as many people have reported way more miles than me. I did improve it significantly when I changed my oil to Magnatec and put on a Carquest premium filter. My last oil change I put on a Napa Gold filter with same amount and type of oil in it, and I feel like it's been a little bit more frequently. That was another reason why I've been looking this up.

From what I've been able to piece together from reading lots of different posts on different forums is that at some point in time Carquest filters went from Wix to Purolator filters. Napa Gold are still Wix filters. I initally was gonna return my filters, and just get something different. But, looking at frontier forums I've found about 4-5 different posts reporting Bosch Premium filters have helped with the startup noise. When I looked up Bosch and who actually makes them I was getting lots of posts claiming they we're the same as Purolator Pure One AKA Carquest Premium. So now I'm 'torn' no pun intended on what filter to use, the one the reduced startup chatter, or the one that is proven not to tear.

Keep in mind what I wrote above has nothing scientific to it, I'm just trying to get a good setup for my truck for miles to come.

I do enjoy this forum, along with the great information, and detailed photos (Thanks Robert). I do feel a lot like Neo in the Matrix and taking the red pill learning a whole lot of information that the normal person wouldn't want to know or care to know.