Silkolene Identifies Base Oils Used in 4T Lineup

Status
Not open for further replies.
Read some data sheets for oils meeting MA2 and decide for yourself how they got their oils to MA2 from MA....or contact the manufacturers and ask. Reducing or eliminating moly becomes clear for some but not all of the oils I've reviewed. A gentlemen on the BMW Luxuary board just posted a reply from Motul recommending he not use their 300v in his RT for the reasons discussed above. If you are in doubt, I recommend you contact Motul. I have found them to be very responsive to these types of questions.

14 and newer BMW manuals outright warns owners to use MA2 rated oil stating that molybdenum-based substances are prohibited because they attack the coatings on engine components.

That is my reference to clutch damage above. I cannot speak to other makes but would encourage anyone to inquire with the makers of their machines exactly why they specify
MA2 oil instead of MA.

I own a new BMW that specifies 5w40, API/SL, JASO MA2 oil. I've spent considerable time finding out the reasons this new machine requires this new spec oil and why I should not use a previous more common spec that works fine in other machines. That is the entire point of reference and MO in regards to my posts above. I'd bet the OP, LoneRanger owns a newer machine that specifies this oil as well. That's why some of us want a list of ester/pao based oils meeting this spec. I would also trust that almost all wanting this list (except one) fully understand that their are other lower groups of oil that meet this spec. My respectful response is "yes there are, but just because there are, doesn't mean you should use them." As you all know, if an oils specs also indicated it's expected performance at the end of its use, there would be no reason for this forum to exist. I hope this helps clear up any misconceptions from my posts above.
 
Last edited:
Silkolene have a very helpful proper technical support person. I will get in touch. Also with motul but don't know how good they are.

Mind you not all manufacturers provide full or clear specs in their product data sheets

My headline understanding is MA2 was developed with some additives removed for bikes equipped with CATs. But perhaps there is more to it I don't know.

Strangely enough, both my bikes (2008 + 2009 with CATs) manufacturers specify MA.

Here is the question: it is ok to use MA2 where MA has been specified?

If I kew how to upload, I could share the pdf's I got on MA/MA2
 
Isn't the 300V "Factory Line" variation on 300V marketed for street use? That's what I thought, anyhow... could be wrong just trying to verify.

I think that a *blend* of PAO and Ester preferred. With PAO, there has to be a blend stock used at least for additive solubility. With Ester it can be a straight Ester due to Ester's ability to carry additives. But there's that spectre of Ester's high polarity causing some measure (miniscule or negligible?) of hydrodynamic drag at high rpm. There was a white paper by Elf / Total hosted a Phillipine based web site that touted PAO over Ester for just that reason-- that Ester's tendency to cling to metal was a downside at high rpm.
 
PAO:

Silkolene Pro 4 Plus 10W50, 5W40
Motorex Power Synt 4T 10W50, 10W60
Spectro Platinum 4 10W40, 15W50
Liqui Moly Synth 4T Street Race 10W50, 10W60
Liqui Moly Motorad Synth 4T 10W50, 5W40
Elf Moto 4 Race 10W60 (Labeled Race but PDS says catalyst safe & change at manufacturer recommended interval)

Ester:

Motul 7100 4T 10W40, 10W50, 10W60 (7100 seems hard to find in the USA)



Amsoil is not on the list because they decline to cite PAO content in their FAQ since a few years ago.

In Germany I believe the law still requires that if a product is labeled Full Synthetic (or Vollsynthetisches in German), it has to be Group IV or V. I've seen their labels say Full Synthetic in English but also labels saying "Vollsynthetisches." To ensure PAO I'd lean toward the bottles with the German word for Full Synthetic-- those labels are entirely in English except for the word Vollsynthetisches. Don't hear much about Liqui Moly 4T oils, they are kind of a sleeper.

* This post is not a recommendation. Always read a product's label, PDS, or TDS to determine if it is suitable to your application.
 
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Motul 300 is a racing oil for dirt bikes. It's additive package is designed to make maximum power but has a very short service life because the friction modifiers deteriorate quickly. Contact Motul and they will tell you that, AND that they don't recommend it for street/road bike applications. It's not hard to understand that different applications required oils with different additive packages. Why would anyone 300v it in a street/touring bike when Motul makes 7100 4t series oil at the same price which has an additive package formulated for the longer change intervals of road machines?....plus it meets/exceeds API/SL and JASO MA2. If you want to use 300v in your street bike, go for it, and let us know how those UOAs look after 2000 miles.

So I suppose you know these things from experience? Motul markets several varieties of 300V to street and racing applications. My experience with 300V in a street/ touring bike has been exactly the opposite of your claims - it lasts fine throughout a long oil change interval - which tells me you have no experience on which to base your dubious advice.

I've done four runs with UOA's on Motul 300V 10W40 double ester in my Suzuki V-Strom 650 - with mileage varying from 3500 to 4600 miles - the UOA's consistently showed I was under-using the oil's potential. By all means, you are welcome to dispute my results which have been posted for some time for all to see in the Motorcycle Used Oil Analysis board of this site:

1. UOA No. 1
2. UOA No. 2
3. & 4. UOAs No. 3 & No. 4

And my current fill is a 50 - 50 mixture of 300V 10W40 and 15W50, which I expect to have a UOA for sometime this winter.
 
That's rather snarky. Assuming you've read the thread from the beginning, and understand the discussion is about ester in 5w40 oils rated API/SN, JASO MA2, and that I was commenting specifically about Motul 300v 5w40 which is formulated for racing dirt bikes, I'll make a similar remark about your experience: I don't doubt your experience with Motul 10w40, which isn't formulated specifically for dirt bike racing. While I can appreciate you trying to educate me on the differences between Motul formulas, I'll just say I've used Motul in multiple motorcycles for over 41 years I'm glad you found an oil you like for whatever your application is. Since your application clearly isn't for 5W40, API/SN, JASO MA2, frankly I don't care. Likwise, I'll assume that from your experience you know that each different weight of Motuls' 300v series has different add packages and they are formulated for different applications and purposes. But, because you've missed those points and no one other than you has discussed 300V 10w40 in this thread, I do have to doubt your experience with reading comprehension.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Motul 300 is a racing oil for dirt bikes. It's additive package is designed to make maximum power but has a very short service life because the friction modifiers deteriorate quickly. Contact Motul and they will tell you that, AND that they don't recommend it for street/road bike applications. It's not hard to understand that different applications required oils with different additive packages. Why would anyone 300v it in a street/touring bike when Motul makes 7100 4t series oil at the same price which has an additive package formulated for the longer change intervals of road machines?....plus it meets/exceeds API/SL and JASO MA2. If you want to use 300v in your street bike, go for it, and let us know how those UOAs look after 2000 miles.

So I suppose you know these things from experience? Motul markets several varieties of 300V to street and racing applications. My experience with 300V in a street/ touring bike has been exactly the opposite of your claims - it lasts fine throughout a long oil change interval - which tells me you have no experience on which to base your dubious advice.

I've done four runs with UOA's on Motul 300V 10W40 double ester in my Suzuki V-Strom 650 - with mileage varying from 3500 to 4600 miles - the UOA's consistently showed I was under-using the oil's potential. By all means, you are welcome to dispute my results which have been posted for some time for all to see in the Motorcycle Used Oil Analysis board of this site:

1. UOA No. 1
2. UOA No. 2
3. & 4. UOAs No. 3 & No. 4

And my current fill is a 50 - 50 mixture of 300V 10W40 and 15W50, which I expect to have a UOA for sometime this winter.


Pretty much my experience as well. I've been running Motul 300V 4T 15w50 in my heavily modified sportbike, for years now. It's making far more power than it did in stock configuration, and several UOA's (never posted them here though) say I could continue using it for far longer OCI's than I do.

Redline M/C oil is a close second, in my experience. Even though I can get Redline oil for a great deal, I still use the Motul. Simply because the bike seems to run better on it, and UOA's confirm it works well in the bike.
 
Ahh, but since Motul makes 2 different 300V 5W40's, your claims appear to be the ones which missed the point. They make a 300V 5W40 called Factory Line that would work well in a JASO-MA/ MA2 API SN application (wet clutch compatibility checked on JASO T903 test), but you seem determined to claim the 300V Off Road choice was the only one available in 5W40 and that it was a poor fit for someone's street application. In a world of strawman arguments of course it is, but why make that recommendation if they provide a solution which much more closely fits the requirement posited in this post?

From Motul's own website:

Motul 300V ester core Factory Line 5W40 - Technical Data Sheet:

Originally Posted By: Motul
TYPE OF USE
Race bikes fitted with high performance 4 stroke engines, integrated gearbox or not, wet or dry clutch,
race engines, qualifying engines designed to run low viscosity oil: speed bikes, MotoGP, SuperSport,
Superbike, uphill, hill climb …
Other uses: street bikes fitted with catalytic converters, ATV’s, UTV’s…

If I lived in a cooler climate I would be willing to try this oil for my street/ touring bike. Nowhere in their descriptions do they try to discourage motorcycle riders from using this as a quality fill for a full length oil change interval in normal street service. Other than startup viscosity, I see little difference between this and the 300V Factory Line 10W40 that works so well for me (and in the double ester version contained an additive pack with 150ppm of fine quality organic moly that did absolutely nothing to degrade my clutch - or any other engine/ transmission function for that matter).

So I am interested in what brought you to only consider the Off Road version when the OP wants to discuss ester-based 5W40 JASO-MA/ MA2 oils. I am also interested in the source for your claim that the 300V Off Road version contains friction modifiers which are degraded after a few hours in use.
 
Should I add 300V factory line version under the ester list with the 7100, it sounds like it is catalyst friendly and will go the manufacturer OCI?
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
PAO:

Silkolene Pro 4 Plus 10W50, 5W40
Motorex Power Synt 4T 10W50, 10W60
Spectro Platinum 4 10W40, 15W50
Liqui Moly Synth 4T Street Race 10W50, 10W60
Liqui Moly Motorad Synth 4T 10W50, 5W40
Elf Moto 4 Race 10W60 (Labeled Race but PDS says catalyst safe & change at manufacturer recommended interval)

Ester:

Motul 7100 4T 10W40, 10W50, 10W60 (7100 seems hard to find in the USA)



Amsoil is not on the list because they decline to cite PAO content in their FAQ since a few years ago.

In Germany I believe the law still requires that if a product is labeled Full Synthetic (or Vollsynthetisches in German), it has to be Group IV or V. I've seen their labels say Full Synthetic in English but also labels saying "Vollsynthetisches." To ensure PAO I'd lean toward the bottles with the German word for Full Synthetic-- those labels are entirely in English except for the word Vollsynthetisches. Don't hear much about Liqui Moly 4T oils, they are kind of a sleeper.

* This post is not a recommendation. Always read a product's label, PDS, or TDS to determine if it is suitable to your application.





Very nice list LoneRanger! With regard to Motorex Power Synth they also manufacture a 5W40 that also meets JASO MA specs and all three viscosities (5W40, 10W50, and 10w60) are a PAO/Ester blend. Sadly my phone won't let me post the link, but it can be found under MOTOREX SALES INFORMATION- Motorex USA.

I would also add the Motul 300V to your list under the Ester group as you recommended. If interested in picking up the Motul 7100, you can pick it up via Cycle Gear, or any dealership/motorcycle shop that uses Parts Unlimited or Western Powersports as a vendor, they both keep high stock quantities of all Motul products.
 
Last edited:
I agree with adding the Motul 300v to the list, perhaps as a "streetable racing oil"
but if you list the API and JASO rating for each of the 300v weights that probably isn't necessary as folks who understand the ratings and actually check the Motul website for application guidance won't have any problems.

Here's another link to a Motul 7100 4t source which is currently on sale for a great price: http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/21118/i/motul-7100-synthetic-oil-4t

And here's the link to Motorex that Analyzer was unable to post: http://www.motorex.com/index.cfm?oid=1147&lang=en
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Isn't the 300V "Factory Line" variation on 300V marketed for street use? That's what I thought, anyhow... could be wrong just trying to verify.

I think that a *blend* of PAO and Ester preferred. With PAO, there has to be a blend stock used at least for additive solubility. With Ester it can be a straight Ester due to Ester's ability to carry additives. But there's that spectre of Ester's high polarity causing some measure (miniscule or negligible?) of hydrodynamic drag at high rpm. There was a white paper by Elf / Total hosted a Phillipine based web site that touted PAO over Ester for just that reason-- that Ester's tendency to cling to metal was a downside at high rpm.


Good information to think about in regards to ester's tendency to to cling at high rpm. My thoughts are I don't see this as a downside in touring bikes for several reasons: they don't tend to run at higher rpms except perhaps when rider is in maximum acceleration mode and to me the polarity is an absolute positive attribute in a touring bike gearbox. However, I agree that the polarity characteristic would be a hp/torque "robber" in a racing bike. It's also my understanding this issue is exactly why some oils like Motul 300V 5w40 have a completely different "additive Package" for racing with additional friction modifiers as compared to the heavier weight 300V series oils.

Also, bonjo asked a good question in his last post about "MA" and "MA2" rated oils and their interchangability. It's my understanding that as with API ratings, the "higher" or newer rating can safely be used where the "lower" or older rating is specified; ie, MA2 oil can safely be used in a machine requiring "MA" rated oil, but "MA" rated oil cannot safely be used in a machine requiring "MA2" AM I correct on this? Can someone shed some light on this question?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Isn't the 300V "Factory Line" variation on 300V marketed for street use? That's what I thought, anyhow... could be wrong just trying to verify.

I think that a *blend* of PAO and Ester preferred. With PAO, there has to be a blend stock used at least for additive solubility. With Ester it can be a straight Ester due to Ester's ability to carry additives. But there's that spectre of Ester's high polarity causing some measure (miniscule or negligible?) of hydrodynamic drag at high rpm. There was a white paper by Elf / Total hosted a Phillipine based web site that touted PAO over Ester for just that reason-- that Ester's tendency to cling to metal was a downside at high rpm.


Good information to think about in regards to ester's tendency to to cling at high rpm. My thoughts are I don't see this as a downside in touring bikes for several reasons: they don't tend to run at higher rpms except perhaps when rider is in maximum acceleration mode and to me the polarity is an absolute positive attribute in a touring bike gearbox. However, I agree that the polarity characteristic would be a hp/torque "robber" in a racing bike. It's also my understanding this issue is exactly why some oils like Motul 300V 5w40 have a completely different "additive Package" for racing with additional friction modifiers as compared to the heavier weight 300V series oils.

Also, bonjo asked a good question in his last post about "MA" and "MA2" rated oils and their interchangability. It's my understanding that as with API ratings, the "higher" or newer rating can safely be used where the "lower" or older rating is specified; ie, MA2 oil can safely be used in a machine requiring "MA" rated oil, but "MA" rated oil cannot safely be used in a machine requiring "MA2" AM I correct on this? Can someone shed some light on this question?


Yes back-specing is a commonly held principal where the latest spec supersedes the older ones.
The principal doesn't necessarily apply right across the board in all circumstances despite the best of intentions and planning.
That's why sometimes there are exceptions and revisions to the manufacturer recommendations after the fact.

Caveat emptor.
 
To add fire to the Motul 300V debate (street vs. race) I went on Motul's site and played around with their Product Recommender applet. Randomly selected various bikes of 1000cc displacement and above. Never did it show 300V in the list of recommended oils for factory recommended service intervals. It listed 5100 and 7100 for every bike I plugged in, and on some bikes it also included their conventional 3000 but not 300V.
 
FWIW Kawasaki's 10w40 full synthetic back of bottle label reads "100% PAO/Ester" and it can be purchased everyday at $11.99/quart. I've used it in several bikes to include a 2012 Ducati Multistrada 1200 S Touring. Works fabulously. Although it's a little pricey it might be the best bang for your buck oil if a fully synthetic Moto specific oil is your desirement.
 
Meguin Racer SAE 10W-60 VS is also a pure Grp IV, PAO based oil.
Send them an e-mail if you'd like, they will tell you. That's how I know.
JASO MA2, API SL/CF, ACEA A3/B4
Don't know much about availability over there, but there sure are some Meguin related threads on this forum.
 
A quick Google search yielded only pricing in Euros so at a quick glance it's not available in the US. Some of the prices in euros looked pretty appealing
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
Ester based motorcycle oil
4 5 6
Replies
102
Views
6K
bioilcurious
2
  • Locked
Why isn’t there a group III base oil type lubricant for piston powered aviation engines?
Replies
8
Views
364
MolaKule
C
Gear Oil With Similar Specifications but Different Base Stock - Practical Implications?
Replies
4
Views
314
cray54
Hohn
Let's talk about Flashpoint (ASTM D92) and volatility
Replies
9
Views
647
RDY4WAR
fantastic
YT VIDEO: I read the Valvoline Premium Blue Restore patent so you don't have to ... WARNING: SCIENCE
Replies
6
Views
1K
4WD
Back
Top Bottom