Siezed Caliper + Exhaust Leak @ Cat - '03 Civic

[gathermewool]

Vehicle: '03 Civic EX

Miles: 120,000

Problem # 1: Siezed Passenger-side caliper

Prior to replacement of the siezed passenger-side caliper, the following readings were taken with my IR pyrometer after a long highway drive:

Passenger-side Caliper - 265F
Driver's-side Caliper - 175F

--The hottest point for each was measured on the rotor, just above the caliper.

Following the replacement, with some heavier braking to clean off any brake deposits on the reused rotors - I didn't have time to replace the rotors:

Passenger-side Caliper - 140F
Driver's-side Caliper - 180F

This doesn't seem bad, but does seem to indicate that the driver’s side caliper is slightly hanging up, at least compared to the replacement, reman’d passenger-side caliper. Since the driver-side caliper was much easier to compress when I replaced the brake pads last month, I didn’t think it necessary to replace both calipers, especially in a car that may not be kept for more than a year or two.

Based on the temps, do any of you have any comments? It’s only ~$55 for a reman’d caliper (and 1.5 hrs of my own labor,) so cost isn’t a huge issue, but I’d rather not waste money, time and resources if it’s not necessary. The gf will be back this weekend, so I’ll be able to monitor the temps after a few days of use to see if anything has changed. TIA for all input.

Problem # 2: Exhaust leak at downstream cat.

I noticed a decent-sized hole in her exhaust around the area of her downstream catalytic converter yesterday while replacing the caliper. I didn’t have time to cut the heat shield off and confirm exactly where the location was, but it was a decent amount of exhaust - enough to be heard in the car while driving, but not even close to [censored]-cannon loud. I had enough room to also determine that it was NOT coming from the flange.

My questions is whether I can remove the heat shield, clean the area with a wire brush and some alcohol, and JB Weld the hold, if small enough. If not that, do you guys think tack-welding a few beads at low current would work? I have a welder I trust, but wouldn’t hold him responsible if he blue a hole in the cat by accident.

Thanks again for the help! The goal is to keep this car going for as long as possible, but to put almost no money into it.

 

[oggb]

Exhaust leak: I was going to say try JB weld or getting it welded in that order, but you've got that covered.

Calipers: No idea if that's worth fixing or not. I know it'd worry the [censored] out of me.

 

[bruckus]

You could always just remove the caliper and free up the slider pins. I had to do this on my civic. The pins get corroded and need to be cleaned and lubed. Should take care of the problem.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: JRed
Exhaust leak: I was going to say try JB weld or getting it welded in that order, but you've got that covered.

Calipers: No idea if that's worth fixing or not. I know it'd worry the [censored] out of me.


I have some JB Weld around here somewhere, in one of my junk drawers. I'll try that first, since it'll be essentially free, and may lessen the leak, at the very least.

It does worry me a little, but a delta of 40F on the cooler side is much better than 90F! I'm sure that if the caliper is going to seize, the temps will slowly rise, and if that happens I'll replace the caliper immediately. I'm going to make sure to get a good baseline of temps over multiple short and long trips and set a max temp based on that.

As of now, not knowing what a critical temp would be, I'm sticking with a delta of 60F, not to exceed 200F for normal, non-aggressive braking scenarios. That'll change based on input from you guys and after I collect a few more data points. The funny thing is, most people don't pay attention to this kind of [censored], and drive their cars until they're forced to repair something. After I replaced the caliper, the car felt, drove and braked normally, but me being a little OCD, I had to go and monitor freaking rotor temps and give myself something to worry about!

Originally Posted By: bruckus
You could always just remove the caliper and free up the slider pins. I had to do this on my civic. The pins get corroded and need to be cleaned and lubed. Should take care of the problem.


I did this when I replaced the pads last month. The slider pins were perfect, though the grease was a little dark. The caliper came semi-loaded (came with all of the hardware, but no pads,) so I replaced everything, but the old stuff was in good enough shape that I kept it.

 

[The_Eric]

Don't bother with the J.B weld, especially if it fails and your welder friend is going to have to weld it. Bite the bullet, buy a 6 pack and head over to have it welded. If the bolts (or nuts) aren't too deteriorated, remove the cat to make it easier for him. If the nuts/bolts are basically gone, see if you can remove the hangers to give him some working room.

edit: Stop being cheap and replace the caliper. I know you're trying to keep the investment down, but if that caliper sticks good, then I can just about guarantee she won't catch it before the pads are A) Heat cracked or B)worn to almost nothing, and in either case the repair just got more expensive.

 

[mattd]

compress the caliper with a screwdriver and try moving the caliper back and forth by hand. Does it move with ease? If not, i would remove the slides and grind them down a bit and heavily grease them, or replace the caliper.

 

[mechtech2]

JB weld will not stand up to that kind of heat.
A waste of time - sorry.

Try a good cleaning and lubing of the sliding parts and pins of the other caliper. Bur best is to replace it to match the other side.

 

[MarkM66]

I'm sure it depends on the area and person doing your safety inspection. But any sort of "glue" on your exhaust system will not pass. It has to be welded.

Exhaust clamps won't pass either, welded only.

At least that what I was told in my area.

 

[gathermewool]

I'm going to take every one's advice and just replace the other caliper. It's only $55 and shouldn't take me more than 45 minutes.

She's registered in MA. I don't believe they have visual inspections (she just went through emissions - OBD2 check - last month, as well.) Even if they did, the affected area is not visible with the heat shield in place, so I don't think that would matter.

When I reparied my exhaust leak, I had it welded by the same guy I'd have weld her's. I searched around a bit and came across the Permatex Exhaust Putty, which is high-temp-rated and seems to have good ratings online. The ONLY way I'd choose this over welding is if you guys thought it would work and work well. Since every one so far is against the epoxy fix, I'll call up my guy and see if he can fit us in tomorrow some time.

One more question: I checked, but didn't have enough time to replace the rotors a few days ago, but it didn't seem like they'll easily come off. My buddy said there might be an alignment screw or that it might need to be jacked off of the hub with a screw. I saw no alignment screws, but did see two threaded holes. I removed the bracket and have a few good bangs with a rubber mallet, but the rotor didn't even budge. Before I really lay into it, can any one tell me whether the rotor is free-floating or whether it's fastened to the hub? While I'm replacing the caliper, I might as well replace the rotors we already have, too.

 

[The_Eric]

I looked the rotors up by application and they do show a spot for two screws. Looks like you'll have to remove them and thread them in the rotor 90* from where you took them out to help pop the rotors loose. If no screws, a couple sharp blows with a hammer (no mallets) should due.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
I looked the rotors up by application and they do show a spot for two screws. Looks like you'll have to remove them and thread them in the rotor 90* from where you took them out to help pop the rotors loose. If no screws, a couple sharp blows with a hammer (no mallets) should due.


Thanks! I had to literally beat the heck out of the rotors in my old Subie. I took an 1-1/2" pipe and just went at it, even after letting some penetrant dribble down between it and the hub. I'm hoping it won't be that bad in here case.

Unsure and not wanting to break anything, I only moderately mechanically agitated the rotor and then gave up when it didn'd budge.

I just did a quick web search and saw that in certain states (MA being one of them,) the emissions warranty is for 15 years/150kmi. I'm going to call the dealer to see whether this would be covered, though I'm not expecting much...

 

[mechtech2]

Special exhaust sealer with a patch and a clamp over it can seal well for a few years. Not pretty, though!

But general use epoxy is not for exhausts.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Special exhaust sealer with a patch and a clamp over it can seal well for a few years. Not pretty, though!

But general use epoxy is not for exhausts.


Yea, I guess I was on my butt when I mentioned JB Weld. What I was thinking of was something like the Permatex 1000F exhaust repair/sealant. I spoke with a few people and they were a bit apprehensive about welding the cat itself, concerned about the risk of simply melting the shell away, even at low amps.

The local parts guy mentioned some product that he swears by, that's made somewhere in PA, I think he said. I don't recall the name of it, but I'll be stopping by after work to check it out. He sells the product, so who knows whether it's any good, but he makes it sound similar to the Permatex stuff.

 

[bruckus]

My 2001 civic has a small phillips head screw that must be removed on the rotor, then they came off easily.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: bruckus
My 2001 civic has a small phillips head screw that must be removed on the rotor, then they came off easily.


Is it on the outboard side of the rotor? My buddy has an older, 90's MY Civic and he mentioned the same thing, which is what prompted the caution in my initial attempt to remove the rotor. I did not, however, see any screws. All I see are two threaded screw holes in each rotor, 180* apart.

I'm going to grab a block of wood and just beat them like I did my Subie until one of us gives up. haha

Also, the product the parts guy sold me on was Yale Automotive Muffler Cement. I know I should just have it welded, but I'm curious to see how this works. Just remember, if I wasn't taking an interest in my gf's ride, she'd still be driving around with a seized caliper and not so much as an inkling that she had an exhaust leak, so even a temporary putty fix is better than nothing, right?

 

[MarkM66]

At 130k miles, I'm sure the factory rotors have been swapped. They don't need to be replaced, so that's why they're not there.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: MarkM66
At 130k miles, I'm sure the factory rotors have been swapped. They don't need to be replaced, so that's why they're not there.



She says her brakes were done May of last year, and the mechanic went to the Honda dealership for OEM rotors and pads. Most of the pulsing was gone, but it was still present. I'm guessing the rotors are higher quality to be able to take that much thermal stress and not warp, since it appears that that past few days of driving have cleaned off most of the pad deposits on the rotor. It may still be slightly warped, but I decided to keep the rotors for later use. If she hasn't gotten rid of the car in a few years and the new rotors on there now don't last, then I'll have the Honda rotors turned and use those. If we never need them, I'll just toss them.

So, I got everything swapped over with out a single hiccup...until I went to attach the brake line to the new caliper - it wouldn't even begin to thread on.

I pulled the new caliper off again and checked, but it wouldn't even thread a single thread, though it looked to be the correct 10mmX1.00 threads. To make sure I didn't somehow maul the threads on the bolt, I grabbed the old caliper and was able to thread it in very easily.

I cleaned and installed the old caliper and bled it with the last bit of brake fluid from Wednesdays caliper swap and brake bleeding. There was maybe 1 oz. to spare. Now, if I decide to have the caliper replaced I'll need to buy another bottle. Pints of brake fluid aren't very expensive, but that on top of having to waste more of my time (and possibly taking time off from work) is what irritates me to no end.

At this point, the caliper bracket was back on with all of the new hardware that came with the semi-loaded caliper, except for the slide pins. The old slide pins, which match what came with the other semi-loaded caliper, seemed to be of better quality than what came with this caliper - the old slide pins were smooth, with one pin being silver-colored and the other copper-colored, while the new pins were rougher-textured and lighter in weight - so I swapped the new dust boot onto the old slide pins, greased 'em up and reused them.

I decided that I wasn't about to remove all of the hardware from both brackets so I could return everything as it came. I was mad that the threads were screwed up and decided to just return the caliper without any of the hardware that came with it. The counter guy wouldn't accept it, saying that he needed it all back before he would allow it to be returned. It was hot and I was dirty, so I was probably a little more abrasive than I should have been. To make a long story short, we decided it was best for me to come back Monday to talk with the owner and work out how we're going to make this work. I offered to pay for the hardware or give them the old hardware, which I'd kept, so we'll see what happens. If worse comes to worst, I'll balk, have them replace the caliper and try to make time to replace it.

Either way, the brakes are working perfectly now with the new rotors and pads. The old pads (month old, really) were scuffed-looking and didn't appear to be wearing evenly on the side where the caliper seized. It sucks to spend money again on pads I just replaced, but I'm glad I did.

The exhaust leak seems to be getting worse, but it has also been nice enough outside that we've been driving around all day with the windows down. All of the lift bays were taken and I did brake job with a floor jack, so I wasn't able to really get under there to cut the heat shield off and assess the damage.

Thanks again for all of your advice.

 

[gathermewool]

I was able to install the new caliper and bleed the brakes (with the help of my lovely assistant) in just under half an hour - everything went amazingly smoothly. The hobby shop was full-up again, though, so I had to use the floor jack. I'm hoping to get under there this weekend to check on the exhaust leak. I'll be doing a drain and fill of DW-1 ATF, even though the fluid looks fine and the trannys shifts well.

Unfortunately, her CEL came on for the third time since the beginning of the year, with codes P0300, P0302 and P0303. It might be the exhaust, but since the leak seems to be coming from the downstream portion of the cat, I have my doubts. The last time she had these same exact codes I replaced the plugs, applied some dielectric grease and reinstalled the coils. I'm not sure if this might also be an issue, but the # 2 coil didn't seem to click into place (3 was some what similiar, but better,) and the coil would "spring" back up a little. I attributed this to the dielectric grease creating a positive pressure in the spark plug hole, but it's more likely that the coil isn't seating properly, and wouldn't, no matter how much i wiggled it and pushed it down.

Is there a way to ensure that the coil seats properly?

 

[SLCraig]

I would try removing the coils and cleaning all dielectric out and seeing if that makes any difference...

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: SLCraig
I would try removing the coils and cleaning all dielectric out and seeing if that makes any difference...


That's my plan. Hopefully it is just a pressure buildup. I'll be underzealous with dielectric application this time. haha

I verified the codes and the same two cylinder are misfiring as back in May. I'm going to swap cylinder number 4 and cylinder number 3 coils to see if it follows. I'm only swapping one because I want to verify that my cylinder markings are correct. Chilton shows Cylinder one as being the driver-side-most cylinder. An internet search showed both the Chilton numbering as well as the opposite, with the driver-side-most cylinder being number 4.