I drive a new Malibu with 4 cylinder automatic and it has plenty of power, very comfortable and not a problem yet at 9K miles.
Sick of American-car bashing....
- Thread starter AstroVic
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Oddly enough, I have. When Ford canceled the Contour, I told them that it was the kind of car I wanted, but without the quality or the resale value.
It seemed the Contour went down in refinement from it's 1995 debut with all sorts of decontenting and there wasn't much improvement in reliability. Resale was awful, with Ford dumping this car into rental fleets.
I asked them to look at the 3 series and the Lexus IS300 and bring out a non-luxury version of that. An approximately 3 litre 6 cylinder, with an honest to goodness manual tranny and RWD.
I said I knew they could build such a car, as the Contour proved they knew how to do suspensions. Reliability is possible, and resale will follow if the car proves to be reliable and a good value at the higher price.
Had I not divorced, I think I'd be in a Lexus or BMW or maybe one of the Caddy CTS cars right now.
I asked GM to consider something similar, a sedan based on their inline 6 engine found in the Trailblaser, on a 7/8ths scale.
Personally, I like the music of a high revving DOHC engine. The sound of my Contour's Duratec was automotive heaven.
I'd like to see someone build a RWD sedan about that size, and not feel the need to put a large V8 in the front.
It seemed the Contour went down in refinement from it's 1995 debut with all sorts of decontenting and there wasn't much improvement in reliability. Resale was awful, with Ford dumping this car into rental fleets.
I asked them to look at the 3 series and the Lexus IS300 and bring out a non-luxury version of that. An approximately 3 litre 6 cylinder, with an honest to goodness manual tranny and RWD.
I said I knew they could build such a car, as the Contour proved they knew how to do suspensions. Reliability is possible, and resale will follow if the car proves to be reliable and a good value at the higher price.
Had I not divorced, I think I'd be in a Lexus or BMW or maybe one of the Caddy CTS cars right now.
I asked GM to consider something similar, a sedan based on their inline 6 engine found in the Trailblaser, on a 7/8ths scale.
Personally, I like the music of a high revving DOHC engine. The sound of my Contour's Duratec was automotive heaven.
I'd like to see someone build a RWD sedan about that size, and not feel the need to put a large V8 in the front.
I am a Chevy fan. I own a 72 Burb, a 68 Chevelle, a 70 C20, and my wife drives a 04 Cavalier. I love the older Chevies. Have had the following problems with later model ones though:
93 Cavalier: Would suddenly stall with no notice. Took o dealer for service several times. Prolem never identified. Had to trade it in with low mileage due to my concern that it may leave my family stranded.
95 Lumina Van: Interior panels falling off and/or cracking at 27,000 miles. Transmission failure at 35,000 miles replaced by dealer with GM rebuild. Transmission failed again at 55,000 miles.
04 Cavalier: Hydraulic clutch components in transmission failed just after it went out of warranty. All else OK so far with 60k on it now.
My wife and I have had a few imports including an 00 Frontier, 94 Mitsubishi Expo, 97 Sentra, 2 mid-90s GEO Metros, and a Volkswagon TDI. I only experienced one problem among all of these purchases. An AC hose on my Frontier fail at 12k. Dealer replaced it and I drove it until I sold it with over 100k on it. The imports I owned drove as good the day I sold them as the day I bought them in my opinion. When I sold all of my late model Chevies I felt guilty handing over troubled vehicles to the buyers. In my opinion he import car companies are doing something right, and it appears that GM is catching on. I will likley not buy a Ford or a Chrysler though. Just my preference.
I am and likely will forever be a Chevy fan. But mostly older Chevies, which is what dominates my driveway.
93 Cavalier: Would suddenly stall with no notice. Took o dealer for service several times. Prolem never identified. Had to trade it in with low mileage due to my concern that it may leave my family stranded.
95 Lumina Van: Interior panels falling off and/or cracking at 27,000 miles. Transmission failure at 35,000 miles replaced by dealer with GM rebuild. Transmission failed again at 55,000 miles.
04 Cavalier: Hydraulic clutch components in transmission failed just after it went out of warranty. All else OK so far with 60k on it now.
My wife and I have had a few imports including an 00 Frontier, 94 Mitsubishi Expo, 97 Sentra, 2 mid-90s GEO Metros, and a Volkswagon TDI. I only experienced one problem among all of these purchases. An AC hose on my Frontier fail at 12k. Dealer replaced it and I drove it until I sold it with over 100k on it. The imports I owned drove as good the day I sold them as the day I bought them in my opinion. When I sold all of my late model Chevies I felt guilty handing over troubled vehicles to the buyers. In my opinion he import car companies are doing something right, and it appears that GM is catching on. I will likley not buy a Ford or a Chrysler though. Just my preference.
I am and likely will forever be a Chevy fan. But mostly older Chevies, which is what dominates my driveway.
Astro,
my experience with american cars is mixed. Every GM or Chrysler car I have every owned required big repairs around 100,000 miles and felt as if they are falling apart (rattle, loose and breaking trim and much more) However, my 98 Explorer at 130,000 is much-much better. Our toyota Camry and 4-runner with 75,000 to 100,000 miles seems to be very high quality. Nothing significant beyond normal maintenance.
Now my beloved 95 BMW with 135,000 miles is like an expensive woman. It requires a lot of maintenance to keep it running top notch. This model has known significant issues. Cooling system is weak and tranys have been known to die at 100,000 plus. However, with care these cars will last 300,000 miles and still look and run well. I admit, you will need to give them top notch care to do so.
That is my problem with american cars. IMO, they will not last (mechanical or apearance wise) a long time even with high quality care. If you buyevery 2-5 years your experience MIGHT be a different story
my experience with american cars is mixed. Every GM or Chrysler car I have every owned required big repairs around 100,000 miles and felt as if they are falling apart (rattle, loose and breaking trim and much more) However, my 98 Explorer at 130,000 is much-much better. Our toyota Camry and 4-runner with 75,000 to 100,000 miles seems to be very high quality. Nothing significant beyond normal maintenance.
Now my beloved 95 BMW with 135,000 miles is like an expensive woman. It requires a lot of maintenance to keep it running top notch. This model has known significant issues. Cooling system is weak and tranys have been known to die at 100,000 plus. However, with care these cars will last 300,000 miles and still look and run well. I admit, you will need to give them top notch care to do so.
That is my problem with american cars. IMO, they will not last (mechanical or apearance wise) a long time even with high quality care. If you buyevery 2-5 years your experience MIGHT be a different story
I shouldn't have read this thread. Really. But these threads are going to become more and more intense as Toyota takes over this year.
I was at an auto show last year, and the one thing I came away with is that there really isn't all that much differentiation between the products anymore. We need to get away from thinking "American" and "foreign". The real world has moved on!
Ford owns Mazda and Volvo. Many Ford cars are now built on Volvo platforms. Some Mazdas use Ford engines. Ford Rangers use Mazda transmissions. There is much more. GM owns SAAB and Opel. We already know that there are joint engineering efforts between these entities, and so far the results are good for the consumer.
Does that mean that if you buy a Mazda, the profits stay in America? Wait, there are no profits there! But if there were, the "profits" go to the shareholders, not to "America. "Yet this is the claim in reverse... the great mysterious Asian is stealing all our money if we buy Toyota. Nonsense. You can own a piece of Toyota as well as anyone. Many of you probably do, if you have a 401K.
Think of it another way, do you want to support the obscenely overcompensated US based executive, or the more modestly paid Japanese executive.
Everything changes and it always will. Does this mean that we're all doomed, as the engineering all goes to India? I work as an engineer in the semiconductor industry. We recently got rid of an operation in India. I guess, we weren't getting our money's worth from it. I think we were paying little, and getting even less. Things go up and things go down. But we have the freedom to jump off a sinking ship and join one that has a bright future, if we are not afraid to change.
So anyway, that's my take. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion. But it's good to be an American, where we still have the freedom to choose, and that freedom leads to the best economy the world has to offer.
I was at an auto show last year, and the one thing I came away with is that there really isn't all that much differentiation between the products anymore. We need to get away from thinking "American" and "foreign". The real world has moved on!
Ford owns Mazda and Volvo. Many Ford cars are now built on Volvo platforms. Some Mazdas use Ford engines. Ford Rangers use Mazda transmissions. There is much more. GM owns SAAB and Opel. We already know that there are joint engineering efforts between these entities, and so far the results are good for the consumer.
Does that mean that if you buy a Mazda, the profits stay in America? Wait, there are no profits there! But if there were, the "profits" go to the shareholders, not to "America. "Yet this is the claim in reverse... the great mysterious Asian is stealing all our money if we buy Toyota. Nonsense. You can own a piece of Toyota as well as anyone. Many of you probably do, if you have a 401K.
Think of it another way, do you want to support the obscenely overcompensated US based executive, or the more modestly paid Japanese executive.
Everything changes and it always will. Does this mean that we're all doomed, as the engineering all goes to India? I work as an engineer in the semiconductor industry. We recently got rid of an operation in India. I guess, we weren't getting our money's worth from it. I think we were paying little, and getting even less. Things go up and things go down. But we have the freedom to jump off a sinking ship and join one that has a bright future, if we are not afraid to change.
So anyway, that's my take. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion. But it's good to be an American, where we still have the freedom to choose, and that freedom leads to the best economy the world has to offer.
My personal experience has been pretty good with GM and Ford cars and trucks. Never stranded and very acceptable repair records even under abuse. Had a few failures when pushed well beyond capacity, but I can't fault them for that.
So I'm with you AstroVic! I'm sick of our domestics getting bashed!
Now for a good basher-gets bashed story: My former co-worker had an Impala with constant transmission problems. It would burn and darken the fluid in 6 months and finally quit shifting properly. What he failed to mention while bashing his Chevy is that he parked on such a steep incline that the transmission was starving for fluid, and not properly engaging into gear. Hence clutch material in the fluid.
Sooo... he finally had enough of his "POS" Impala and bought a brand new 05 Honda Accord. And guess what? He can't figure out why his auto transmission keeps failing.
Since this saga began I've found most of the bashers have a back-story thats not being told.
So I'm with you AstroVic! I'm sick of our domestics getting bashed!
Now for a good basher-gets bashed story: My former co-worker had an Impala with constant transmission problems. It would burn and darken the fluid in 6 months and finally quit shifting properly. What he failed to mention while bashing his Chevy is that he parked on such a steep incline that the transmission was starving for fluid, and not properly engaging into gear. Hence clutch material in the fluid.
Sooo... he finally had enough of his "POS" Impala and bought a brand new 05 Honda Accord. And guess what? He can't figure out why his auto transmission keeps failing.
Since this saga began I've found most of the bashers have a back-story thats not being told.
I have a love-hate relationship with the US automakers and am angry that they don't get it together...but I love my GM engines. I have never had a GM vehicle fail to start(with one exception when I left the lights on in my Suburban for a week but a jump start fixed that) and this claim goes back to the early 1970's. Now Fords...Found On Roadside Dead. DCX....many good experiences...wife & daughter totalled a Town & Country mini van...got out walked away.
I hate to see them losing the battle like this...breaks my heart. I have had several Japanese vehicles...2 major lemons and went back to GM for good. Japanese vehicles are no better IMO.
I hate to see them losing the battle like this...breaks my heart. I have had several Japanese vehicles...2 major lemons and went back to GM for good. Japanese vehicles are no better IMO.
All of this anecdotal evidence is only pertinent to the one telling the story. Most of us make our decisions based on what we've owned, seen, or heard others in our circle of family, friends, and acquaintenances say. "My Aunt Nellie's neighbor had a cousin who drove an '89 Taurus, and it was a POS. And I had a Ranger that had a head gasket leak. Therefore, all Fords are #@$%!." Heck, general statements like "All Fords are JUNK, or all Chevys are POS's, or Toyotas are cheap" are just...dumb.
None of those things are statistically valid. Personally valid? Sure. Heck, I've had GREAT luck with Fords, and GREAT luck with Hondas. So guess what? That's what I buy. But it just so happens that Hondas are the 1st or 2nd rated car by CR, and Fords are the highest-rated *domestic* producer. That's not why I buy them, but it does help to reinforce my choices in my own mind.
Like it or not, CR's ratings *are* statistically significant. 1.3 million respondents is a pretty large population sample size. And the reports on reliability are based on what the VEHICLE OWNERS say, not some biased person's reviews. Same with the "Owner Satisfaction" portions. They are based on what percentages of the vehicle owners say they would purchase the vehicle again. If 10,000 owners of a car respond and 22% of them say they've had transmission problems, that is a valid statistic. If 3 people I know way they've had problems with their Toyotas, that is NOT a valid statistic, other than perhaps to the person who's listening.
I respect everyone's own experiences and right to choose whatever suits them the best. Heck, that's what I've done. But the numbers are there, and I have to believe them over what Uncle Joe's supervisor said about his '98 Mustang.
And I won't buy a car based on where it came from or what company owns it...only on what works best for me and my family. That doesn't make me unpatriotic, that makes me a participating member of a free-market economy. I guess that's why I own a US and a Japanese vehicle.
None of those things are statistically valid. Personally valid? Sure. Heck, I've had GREAT luck with Fords, and GREAT luck with Hondas. So guess what? That's what I buy. But it just so happens that Hondas are the 1st or 2nd rated car by CR, and Fords are the highest-rated *domestic* producer. That's not why I buy them, but it does help to reinforce my choices in my own mind.
Like it or not, CR's ratings *are* statistically significant. 1.3 million respondents is a pretty large population sample size. And the reports on reliability are based on what the VEHICLE OWNERS say, not some biased person's reviews. Same with the "Owner Satisfaction" portions. They are based on what percentages of the vehicle owners say they would purchase the vehicle again. If 10,000 owners of a car respond and 22% of them say they've had transmission problems, that is a valid statistic. If 3 people I know way they've had problems with their Toyotas, that is NOT a valid statistic, other than perhaps to the person who's listening.
I respect everyone's own experiences and right to choose whatever suits them the best. Heck, that's what I've done. But the numbers are there, and I have to believe them over what Uncle Joe's supervisor said about his '98 Mustang.
And I won't buy a car based on where it came from or what company owns it...only on what works best for me and my family. That doesn't make me unpatriotic, that makes me a participating member of a free-market economy. I guess that's why I own a US and a Japanese vehicle.
Propflux01
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It is easy to see who builds the better product and who is lacking. Just look at the finacial troubles of each company, the amount of consumer complaints and judge for yourself.
"And I won't buy a car based on where it came from or what company owns it...only on what works best for me and my family. That doesn't make me unpatriotic, that makes me a participating member of a free-market economy. I guess that's why I own a US and a Japanese vehicle."
That sums it all up. I buy quality and what I need and can afford.
John
That sums it all up. I buy quality and what I need and can afford.
John
This I doubt, due to the American public's lemming/herd "brainwashed" mentality. They can forgive the Nippons for the horrid rustbuckets of their early years, but NOT Detroit for their "dark times".
YESSIR!! It is QUITE sad (and a SHAMEFUL DISGRACE to an otherwise GREAT site) that I MUST put that disclaimer into every thread where I send people from the LSx boards over here for oil info.
Quote:
All of this anecdotal evidence is only pertinent to the one telling the story. Most of us make our decisions based on what we've owned, seen, or heard others in our circle of family, friends, and acquaintances say.
I have 15 employees and 2 drive Hyundai's the rest drive American and I don't see the so called problems everyone talks about with American cars. That is why I plan on buying American when I need another car.
I had a friend who bought a 93 Jeep Laredo and around 50K miles she just had to get rid of it. WHY ? @ reasons.
One she was brought up that American cars start falling apart around 50K miles. She never had one thing go wrong in that vehicle. The second was she noticed that the dealer had a row of transmissions against the wall. When she asked the service manager said that those were the spares they keep around. Those were the FWD minivan transmissions not the ones that were installed in the Jeeps. So now she thinks her transmission is going to fail any day now so must dump this vehicle today. She replaced with an Olds Alero. The only problem she ever had in the 65K miles other than the routine stuff she was a new battery and a new alternator. I finally convinced her to take it into the shop just before the state inspection was up and get it checked over and fix what needed fixed. So after 4 new Kelly tires, oil change, tranny service, tightened up a loose radiator hose clamp ,and new brake pads all around she has to say the car rides and drives like new.
This women was bad mouthing this car into the ground for one reason. Resale value. She was complaining and assuming it was a piece of junk because trade in was $3500 after 6 years of ownership. She had paid around 20K for it new. She figured it wasn't worth putting $900 in a $3500 car to bring it up to date.
After the work she said the car road like new. When all 4 tires are running on the wear bars and you put on new tires it makes a big difference.
i agree 100%, i've noticed in recent years,a notion thats japanese cars are better than American cars, i don't think so. People need to understand, as someone stated earlier that all these companies, are owned by one another,and that most Japanese are made in America, by Americans!, If you guys want to buy a true import, buy and American brand car!! Cars come down to past experiences, and how well you take car of them, I love my 3800 Buick, wouldn't trade in it for the world!!
It takes time for myths to die.
I will say this, THE JAPANESE HAVE MADE AMERICAN CARS BETTER, PERIOD. They forced the Lame 3 to get their act together (to some extent) and make better quality cars.
I work my @ss off and I will spend my money on a product that is of high quality. I don't care who makes it. I really like a lot of American cars. (Mustangs/Vettes/Trucks)
Two decades worth of #@$%! poor quality American cars have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth. Fisher Price interiors and horrible engines were rampant in the 80's. I wouldn't spend my money on one of them just bc Billy Bob from Ohio works at a Ford plant. Sorry.
I will say this, THE JAPANESE HAVE MADE AMERICAN CARS BETTER, PERIOD. They forced the Lame 3 to get their act together (to some extent) and make better quality cars.
I work my @ss off and I will spend my money on a product that is of high quality. I don't care who makes it. I really like a lot of American cars. (Mustangs/Vettes/Trucks)
Two decades worth of #@$%! poor quality American cars have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouth. Fisher Price interiors and horrible engines were rampant in the 80's. I wouldn't spend my money on one of them just bc Billy Bob from Ohio works at a Ford plant. Sorry.
I own 2 buicks. Check it, Buick has a lower defect density than honda or toyota. Lesabre is one of the most reliable cars sold statistically. Why don't people back up their opinions with statistics and facts instead of I owned one and it was *&^&. That is a hillbilly argument style.
Peace Out
Peace Out
There's a lot more to making a car "good" than how often you need to fix it. I find very little in the majority of American cars that interests me at all. Summed up, I want a tight, RWD sedan with a manual, road feel, cabin ergonomics consistent with established performance driving position, handling and personality. It's nice if it looks good too. Just getting a manual on something "domestic" with more than 3 cylinders is a challenge and if you find one, it's usually just there to make the car cost less not to make it fun to drive.
Even in the days before I knew what I wanted (early 90s) I knew that not much in the domestic lineup interested me.
I very rarely buy or sell a car. As the years continue to go by, I may find myself buying Japanese again when shopping for reliability (like, say, a minivan or a compact commuter-only) but it's clear to me that no one makes what I really want the way that the Germans do. The higher parts cost when maintenance is required is the price to play and I'm fine with that particularly since I haven't needed many. On the whole I have no reliability issues and my car is almost never in the shop and even then only when I've scheduled it. (knock on wood)
Craig.
Even in the days before I knew what I wanted (early 90s) I knew that not much in the domestic lineup interested me.
I very rarely buy or sell a car. As the years continue to go by, I may find myself buying Japanese again when shopping for reliability (like, say, a minivan or a compact commuter-only) but it's clear to me that no one makes what I really want the way that the Germans do. The higher parts cost when maintenance is required is the price to play and I'm fine with that particularly since I haven't needed many. On the whole I have no reliability issues and my car is almost never in the shop and even then only when I've scheduled it. (knock on wood)
Craig.
What gives you that idea? I hear this all the time but it is completely false. Gm spends more money each year maintaning their existing domestic plants that the imports do building plants. Then there is the idea that there are more domestic parts in an import than a domestic. Also false. Your average Kia has 3% domestic parts content. Your average toyota or honda, not much more. Your average gm or ford vehicle has 75%. I don't know where such ideas come from.
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