Shake and toe

[supton]

Ok, that was fun.

Got my Michelin LTX M/S2's today. Waited for two hours, as the shop was busy; then headed off to work. Got an hour in, then headed back, as it wasn't until I was on the highway that I noticed something was out of balance. Go back for a rebalance on the fronts (no line this time). Drove around; nope, front end is still shaking. I even put it into 4WD (while driving straight), and sure enough, up at 60 things get twitchy but now the whole truck shakes: in the front end.

Go back, they take it out for a test drive, balance a third time, still bad. They explain the issue to me, which makes perfect sense: toe is off, and the tires are "fighting" each other.

I don't get how the tires are "fighting" unless if, the rubber blocks are bending then snapping back, and repeating, rather than just sliding on the pavement; didn't dawn on me to ask (I always think of questions later on). But it makes sense: we looked at the fronts that came off the truck; for 6kmiles I guess feathering, no matter how slight, should not be seen.

Tire shop was excellent, and I'm sad that I'm not getting it aligned there (already made an appointment at the dealer where they do a free check and where I'm getting a free inspection anyhow). I just want to verify what the tire shop told me, it sounds all perfectly sound--I've just never heard of a steering wheel shaking due to a toe issue. And it wasn't shaking prior, on the old tires.

I really wish I didn't have holiday traveling to do!

 

[IndyIan]

Eh, I think you've got an out of round tire. I think your toe would have to be off by more than an 1" or two to start shaking the truck. I had my little lesson slamming the camber on a car without adjusting the toe. It was many degrees toed in, but still drove without shaking.
If you need to drive your truck for many miles before they get you a new tire, put the fronts on the back and let a few pounds of pressure out if you are unloaded, it will smooth things out. Also if the shaking goes to the back, you know its not an alignment issue.
Also do some low speed testing to find if the tire will move the whole truck vertically.

 

[supton]

I lack the jacks to rotate tires at the moment... Really need to go buy one.

They road balanced it, and the shop manager explained that it puts on a drum that measures heavy spots in the tire, while exerting 1400lb of force onto the tire. He said light truck tires are often high 20's / low 30's but mine were 14 and 18. [No units given.] You don't notice it in the floorboards, just in the wheel; and the tires were swapped left to right. Did not think to ask to have them rotated around.

I plan to wait and see after the alignment. Shop did say to come back if the alignment did not fix.

 

[IndyIan]

Well, sounds like they will take care of it, whatever the issue is. Maybe you have a loose tie rod end or something? Seems strange a well balanced tire is shaking the steering.

 

[CapriRacer]

First, 18 pounds (that's the units) is a bit marginal for a truck like yours. I find it interesting that a Michelin generates that kind of number. Perhaps they could do a match mount and get the number to go down.

Second, I don't buy the "tires fighting" thing. I think that was an effort to push the blame somewhere where they didn't have to deal with it.

So let's do some diagnostics. Do you feel it in the seat or through the steering wheel? If you can discern which, then do a rotation (If you need to know how to do a rotation with a single jack and a single jack stand, I'll walk you through it.) If it is a single tire /wheel combination, the location of the vibration should change places.

If it doesn't change, then something else is vibrating - not tires and/or wheels.

 

[supton]

Oh--I do have jack stands, forgot about those... Might be able to borrow a jack, the one I have likely won't reach, but I could try and/or use the OEM jack.

The shake is in the steering wheel. Sitting in the passenger seat I didn't notice it. I don't think I felt it on braking, but since I didn't take it past 65 any shake in the pedal would have gone away really fast anyhow.

 

[Cardenio327]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Second, I don't buy the "tires fighting" thing. I think that was an effort to push the blame somewhere where they didn't have to deal with it.


+1

Perhaps the new tires are shedding light on a pre-existing problem? Tie rods, rack & pinion, bushings, ball joints?

Newer trucks don't have as strong of hubs as those of the past did. Maybe they unevenly tightened the lug nuts to 300 or 400 lb.ft. or so and warped a hub. When they put the torque wrench to them in front of the customer it is often just a show & dance. They may have tightened them as much as they could with an impact, then check them with the torque wrench set to Toyota's spec in front of you or the boss.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: supton
......The shake is in the steering wheel. Sitting in the passenger seat I didn't notice it. I don't think I felt it on braking, but since I didn't take it past 65 any shake in the pedal would have gone away really fast anyhow.


So do a front to rear tire swap and see if the vibration moves. If it does, then tires and/or wheels is where the problem is.

If it stays in the steering wheel after the swap, then the problem is in the vehicle somewhere.

If I were you, I'd go back to where I bought the tires and ask them to do the swap for you - for free - for diagnostic purposes. Otherwise you want them to replace the front 2 tires under warranty.

I'm going to guess the 18# tire is the one.

 

[supton]

Since it's the holiday today I decided to see if I could measure the toe. I might have to drive and find a flat spot of asphalt, as my dirt driveway does still have some dips and whatnot in the flatest spot. I went off the center of the outermost tire groove, the big valley on this LTX's and measured about 1/8" toe-in. I'm very leery of this, as it seems very "hack": I took a piece of 1x2 and put a 15" long piece on at 90degree, then used a square on the other end, making marks on the board, then comparing. I did make sure to pull forward and back, and parked with wheels straight; but I think I will run to a parking area and repeat.

 

[supton]

Double checked, just using a tape measure, and again an 1/8th inch (but I haven't driven it to a level ground yet). I looked, and it appears I need a 22mm, 27mm and 30mm set of wrenches to mess with the tie rod ends; don't have those, maybe that's a good enough excuse to go to HF over the weekend.

 

[IndyIan]

I'd leave the toe alone since its very close to zero and you are getting it aligned anyways.
I'd do the front to rear tire swap instead, to track down the steering shake.

 

[97f150]

Did the truck shake before the new tires? If not, dont even trouble yourself about messing with the alignment. The only variable here is the tires. As already stated, rotate the front ones to the back and go for a drive. If it stops shaking or the shake changes, drive back to the tire store and have them swapped out.

I understand the lack of jacks issue. Simply take your spare down and use it while moving the tires front to back. I know this is a lot of work, but figure since you are willing to measure and mess with the alignment you may be up to it.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the toe is supposed to be in a bit. My understanding is that as the vehicle accelerates and maintains speed, the front tires actually turn outward a bit so they are set toe in to compensate for this. I read that somewhere, I cant remember where so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[supton]

Truck needs an alignment, based on tire wear, and rudimentary toe measurement.

Rotated both fronts to the rear. I think there is the slightest shake but that could be from high pressure and lousy roads. Or perhaps something is lose? But I don't feel anything in the rear either. Not enough time to rotate singularly.

The "bad" front tire had weights of:
LF 18lb 0.5oz on stem outside, 1.25 8oclk inside
RF 15lb 1.25oz 3oclk outside, 0.75 9oclk inside
LR 1oz 12oclk outside, 1.5oz 1oclk inside
RR 1.5oz 4oclk outside, no weight inside
Position of weights relative to stem. No road force numbers on rears.

 

[Cardenio327]

Originally Posted By: supton
Truck needs an alignment, based on tire wear, and rudimentary toe measurement


Many Tundras spec 1/8" of toe in, but if the previous tires wore unevenly an alignment is a good idea.

 

[supton]

Indeed. Those tires just hit 6kmiles, so it's a bit of a wonder. Will see (and post) the before/after alignment specs.

IMO it does have something still going on. I have the tires pumped up and so the truck "rattles" more than it would, so it could just be me being hyper-sensitive. I did feel something the one time I hit 70mph though, so something is still amiss--just not nearly as bad.

 

[supton]

Alright, an update:

On Thursday I "needed" to use the truck for a trip, as it was the only one with decent rubber, and the weather looked iffy, and the trunk space was appreciated. I rotated both fronts to the rear (and lubed the rear brake pads while I was it); I did not have enough time to rotate one and try out. On the plus side I learned how much "fun" this job was; on the minus side my vibration is much better. Not completely gone but vastly better. I wouldn't say that it shakes only in the rear, quite frankly I don't think I felt anything through the car seat; but at 70 I think it comes and goes. At 60 it feels fine though (and I generally drive at 60).

Dealer checked alignment this morning. I was in a rush though and did not realize it lacked numbers... It's a graphic, and it has numbers on it, but no "total toe is actually ___."

Using a ruler it looks as if the dealer things 0.35degree is "centered" for toe; 0.19 is lower limit and 0.51 is upper limit. Looking at a repair manual for a prior model year for my truck (very similar except for engine) shows 0.34degree+/-0.14degree. Close enough. My actual total toe-in is 0.23degree, and it is not centered but technically on the "better" side IMO.

Moving on camber is again in the good range, not perfect: LF is 0.18degree and RF is -0.05degree. Manual says 0.31 +/-0.75 while the printout seems to indicate 0.25 +/- 0.75. Regardless, w/in spec.

I don't quite "get" these numbers; I realize some amount of toe-in is desirable, as being RWD it will tend to toe out (FWD will tend to toe-in) but it seems on the high side. Regardless: alignment is in spec, and back to the tire dealer I go...

 

[supton]

One last update/question: ran my fingers over the front tires yesterday, while doing the oil change. I think I can feel a hair of feathering, after only 2,000miles, on the sipes of these LTX's.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: supton
One last update/question: ran my fingers over the front tires yesterday, while doing the oil change. I think I can feel a hair of feathering, after only 2,000miles, on the sipes of these LTX's.


It's been 12 days since your previous update, so did you go back to the dealer or not?

If you didn't, time's a'wastin'! The longer you put this off, the more likely that the dealer will deny responsibility.

 

[supton]

I got the replacement rears already. They shotgunned it and replaced both rears (which had been the ones shaking on the front). Haven't decided yet on when I'm going to rotate the tires around.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: supton
One last update/question: ran my fingers over the front tires yesterday, while doing the oil change. I think I can feel a hair of feathering, after only 2,000miles, on the sipes of these LTX's.


That's normal, at least in my experience. They recommend that you rotate tires at 5,000 mile intervals probably ("they" meaning Toyota), so it should to stand to reason that you'll begin to feel feathering taking place nearing half into a rotation in interval.