Seriously, who needs a hybrid?

[ekpolk]

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Wow. Its just not worth the safety risk those numbskulls do for fuel economy numbers. Not to mention illegal. Coasting engine off, tailgating. Search 'hypermiler' and check out their techniques.

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Don't let this become a "red herring." You don't need to do those truly crazy things go extract great mpgs from a hybrid. Even when I don't have time to mess with it, or if I'm just deliberately trading some gas for speed, I rarely dip below the mid-40s in my Prius. That's not exactly bad in a car that's closer to the Camry in interior size than it is to a Corolla. AND don't forget that that hypermiling madman did his thing in a plain old Accord I-4 stick (there's a lesson there, btw, for American drivers, a large portion of whom are brainwashed to think they have to roar awaw from every redlight at breakneck speed. Some of the "hypermiling" tricks are perfectly safe and are as effective in a "normal" gasser as they are in a hybrid.

 

[ekpolk]

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I have an 07 Honda Civic Hybrid with about 1,200 miles. I bought it mostly because I wanted to see what all the fuss is about. It's quite a nice little car and interesting to drive, but so far has only averaged 38mpg in all city driving. I drive it more-or-less like any other car. The mileage would probably increase somewhat if I did all the silly things mentioned on some of the forums where the tree huggers post, but that's not why I have a car.

I think it is a technological marvel, although a little overly complicated for it's own good. I believe that hybrids in general are a technical dead end. Small turbo diesels would seem to be a more logical approach to increasing fuel economy, along with stretching crude supplies. Of course, the EPA seems dedicated to preventing widespread usage of diesel in cars by changing emission standard as fast as the manufacturers match existing ones. I was told by a Chevy mechanic that the exhaust system on a new Chevy diesel pickup costs around $3,000 to replace.All in all, there must be a better way than a hybrid.

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gf:

Drive the car more and learn. Even in total "drive and forget" mode, I do way better than 38 in a Prius.

Second, you're really missing the point of the car. Even a small turbo diesel still throws away tremendous amounts of energy through its brakes. Recapturing this energy that otherwise disappears as waste heat is a huge advantage, and one that not even the best diesel can match. Of course, this particular advantage is weighted more toward those who vary their speed frequently (city or congested highway drivers), but still, I fail to see how a car with 96 cubic feet of passenger room, and 15 for cargo, and which can average 45+ mpg on the highway represents a "dead end" technology.

 

[Bror Jace]

ekpolk, earlier in this thread, I mentioned Civics. I wasn't trying to compare a Civic to a Prius ... but wanted to compare two similar cars but one a hybrid and the other a straight gasser. I'd also expect that Honda and Toyota are close to parity with regard to hybrid efficiency ... but that's just a guess.

So, I put together this quick comparison of 4-door Honda Civic LXs:

Price Difference:
$4,840 more for Hybrid vs. LX Auto.

Power:
Gas only - 140hp/128trq.
Hybrid - 110hp/123trq.
Difference: -30hp/-5trq. -21.4%hp/-3.9%

Fuel Economy:
Standard 30 - 38mpg Avg: 34mpg
Auto: 30 - 40mpg Avg: 35mpg
Hybrid: 49 - 51mpg Avg: 50mpg
Difference: +15mpg +43%

Weight:
Standard:
Auto: 2,751
Hybrid: 2,875
Difference: +124lbs. +4.5%

Difference in mileage is significant ... but so is the cost. I don't think hybrids in this case are particularly cost effective. Looks like if you keep them 4+ years, you might be able to break even ... or even save a little later in the vehicle's life.

I get 35-36mpg with my std. 2006 Civic in downtown city traffic. In mixed driving, I get around 39-40 ... and I got over 42mpg once. All my driving during the last 3-4 months has been very careful and deliberate to save fuel.

As for hypermiling, I use some of their techniques to save fuel ... momentum driving with very little braking, timing traffic lights, drafting (at a safe distance), not idling, coasting into parking spots, etc ... but I don't let it get to be a safety problem.

My main concern with these hybrids, is the cost of replacing the battery pack. My knowledge of NiMh batteries is limited to the rechargeable AAAs and AAs I use in flashlights. They are expensive and heavy ... though not as heavy as I would have guessed. As I understand it, these wear out over time, whether they are used or not. So, ridiculously high mileage cars only 3 years old are not likely candidates for battery replacement. I am interested in looking at repair stats for these cars as they are in their 5th through 8th years.

If they can get Lithium Ion batts safer, they should be able to improve economy and maybe even power delivery ... and getting costs of batteries down is good for everyone.

 

[Auto-Union]

How is the heat in an electric car?

 

[tripleM]

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A Hybrid's strength is in stop and go city driving, not highway driving.

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1 of my all time highest mpg reading of 50+ mpg was doing mostly 80 mph hwy driving in the Prius.

No hypermiling ---- either. I don't have the patience.
I am easy on the equipment & can wring 30+ mpg out of the inefficient Mazda 2.3.

 

[ekpolk]

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ekpolk, earlier in this thread, I mentioned Civics. I wasn't trying to compare a Civic to a Prius ... but wanted to compare two similar cars but one a hybrid and the other a straight gasser. I'd also expect that Honda and Toyota are close to parity with regard to hybrid efficiency ... but that's just a guess.

So, I put together this quick comparison of 4-door Honda Civic LXs:

Price Difference:
$4,840 more for Hybrid vs. LX Auto.
. . .

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Bror: These are some good observations. One more thing to consider is that the car makers don't make it easy do a straight apples-to-apples comparision. The price delta between gasser Camrys and hybrids is not as great as the figure you've got here, but the cars aren't configured just the same either. Camry hybrids, in lowest configuration, are equipped better than a Camry LE, but less than an XLE. Irrespective of the difficulties in comparison, it is obvious that the buyer does pay for the added hardware in the hybrid system.

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Looks like if you keep them 4+ years, you might be able to break even ... or even save a little later in the vehicle's life.

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One of my peeves regarding hybrid critics is that they often overlook the NECESSITY of looking at one's own circumstances when determining whether a hybrid is a good buy. Since I drive almost 40k miles per year, the "payback" period will be much shorter than most of the pundits would admit. Driving style and conditions should also be examined.

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. . . My main concern with these hybrids, is the cost of replacing the battery pack. My knowledge of NiMh batteries is limited to the rechargeable AAAs and AAs I use in flashlights. They are expensive and heavy ... though not as heavy as I would have guessed. As I understand it, these wear out over time, whether they are used or not. So, ridiculously high mileage cars only 3 years old are not likely candidates for battery replacement. I am interested in looking at repair stats for these cars as they are in their 5th through 8th years.

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Don't forget that Toyota did extensive research on extending the life of the rechargeable batteries. In an HSD car, they are not "handled" anything like the many batteries you (and I...) have fried in our digital cameras. The ECU programming is heavily biased toward never allowing conditions that wear the battery out. In the Prius, the SOC is NEVER allowed to dip below 40% or exceed 80% (I've never managed to coax my battery above 75%, at least not since I installed CAN-View about six months ago). There are also rate of charge/discharge and temp limits that the system monitors and controls so as to preserve the battery. As to the first generation US Prius (which is actually the second generation of the car in the world market) we are now seven years down the road. If there are going to be wide-spread problems, they should already be happening.

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If they can get Lithium Ion batts safer, they should be able to improve economy and maybe even power delivery ... and getting costs of batteries down is good for everyone.

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Even better batteries (I've heard Li ion, but can't confirm) are coming in the next generation car. Can't wait to see what we get...

 

[c502cid]

ekpolk, you are fighting the same battle as GM these days, that is, you are beating the drum that the Prius is a larger car inside than most small cars, but the perception of the car from it's exterior size will be hard to change. Truthfully, even after I rented one, I have a hard time fighting the perception since I perceived the room to be upward (as in headroom) and not sideways. As much as you try to get everyone to see the room advantage compared to a Civic size car, the perception, as both you and GM know, is harder to change!

 

[Auto-Union]

I just got an FYI, a friend-of-friend is getting 25mpg in their newer Prius. It's all local "Valley" driving. I'm recommending going out and driving the ---- out of it (afer checking oil and adding air to tires) and then maybe I'd do an OC or extraction to Motorcraft or Havoline 5w-20.

 

[Master ACiD]

as a self proclaimed hypermiler i can give a few inputs on this.
for one thing, owning a hybrid isnt just about fuel economy. there is also the smug factor of thinking you are better than everyone else because you have a hybrid. i dont own a hybrid, but i hope to one day for this very reason. plus it gives me an excuse to drive slower than i already go. as it is right now people pass my angerly and wonder why i am going slow. if i was in a hybrid, they would realise im trying to save fuel and so trhey would still pass my with anger, but atleast they would understand why.

2, hypermilers like myself generally help out traffic flow. we have ALL been in gridlock and seen the accordion effect of stupid drivers in traffic mash the gas slam on the brakes mash the gas slam on the brakes, repeat this cycle over and over about 600 times for each accident you pass on the freeway . whenever this happends you can count on hypermilers to set a constant slow speed and kill the accordion effect. this not only saves the hypermiler gas and brake wear, but the people behind him as well.

a similar effect holds true to hypermilers timing the stoplights. people behind them get a green light too so they save on gas and brake wear. i make a concentrated effort to never hit a red light. you should see the looks of wonder some people give me because i am slowing down bcause the light 1/4 up ahead is red. i get these looks like "what the heck is wrong with you why are you slowing down you dont need to slow down for another 1/4 mile" as they pass. most dont realise im slowing down early to maintain a high AVERAGE rate of speed so that when the light turns green i can pass these people who are trying to speed up from a dead stop.

oh theres so much to write but i feel that this post will probably fall of deaf ears, or atleast eyes which strain to understand my poor typing skills and skip most of it.

 

[ekpolk]

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I just got an FYI, a friend-of-friend is getting 25mpg in their newer Prius. It's all local "Valley" driving. I'm recommending going out and driving the ---- out of it (afer checking oil and adding air to tires) and then maybe I'd do an OC or extraction to Motorcraft or Havoline 5w-20.

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Either your friend has been messing around with B-Mode when he should not, or he has a cinder block chained to the back of the car. That's at least 10 mpg lower than any credible Prius mileage report I've seen. They will get a few mpgs less than normal for the first 5k miles or so, but 25 is way out of the ballpark.

Oh yeah, new fuel tank bladders are reported to have caused results like this, occasionally. If a new one is stiff, the previous fill might not really have been a full fill, and if the next is, then the computed mpg for that subsequent fill will appear way low.

 

[Bror Jace]

tripleM, sorry to hear you don't have the patience for at least some 'hypermiling' techniques. I look at it as a discipline, a challenge and a (needed) exercise in patience. I suppose I could concentrate on going fast ... but then I'd lose my license by month's end.

Yes, EK, you will see returns much quicker than the average driver with your 30,000+ annual tally. Me? I'm putting on fewer miles than ever. There are 2-4 days in a row when my car may not move. On most days, I walk to a bus stop and it drops me off within a quarter mile of my office. Then my friend broke her foot, now I drive to pick her up then continue on to work ... about 4 miles total each way. Even then, I bet I am somewhere between 6-8K annually.

Yes, careful battery monitoring and voltage regulation should protect and prolong the battery pack. We're just now coming upon that window where some of the oldest units should be needing replacement so I guess we'll see.

I think Lithium Ion batteries are a tad lighter ... and work better at higher voltage so the motor can be made more powerful. This may save weight/space ... but it may also make the car noticeably quicker.

502cid, erroneous perceptions are a PITA. Many compact cars these days are optiing for that narrow, high look. I dislike it myself. I think most of the erroneous perception comes from people who think of electric cars as ridiculous 1 or 2 seat contraptions ... and probably have never sat in a Prius or other hybrid vehicle. We have two Prius hybrids in our agency fleet ... as well as 2 Highlander hybrids, a Ford Escape Goat hybrid and a couple older CNG Honda Civics. I've seen one of the Highlanders ... but have not seen (nor driven) any of the others.

Master ACID, I liked your post. Ain't it fun to time lights and pass people who are stopped only moments after they passed you while roaring up to a red light? And you're right about pacing traffic on clogged expressways. It may irritate some, but it's best for all concerned to go a constant 5, 10 or 15 mph in those conditions as opposed to constant stopping and starting. The people behind us have no idea how lucky they are to be benefitting from our careful pace. Actually, I have often wondered how many cars back would you have to go in order to find some idiot with his right foot on the gas, and his left on the brake mashing one or both pedals and screwing up my careful pace?

Some people here might be interested to look at Tesla Motors. They are looking like a Lotus-like sports car that is 100% electric powered. Price is a Looney-Tunes $100K right now but that should come down significantly if/when they produce more than a few handful of cars Chassis is bonded-extruded aluminum and the batteries are hundres of lithium-ion cells ... look like 18650 cells ... all wired up to make 400 volts. Range is 200 miles and complete fill up requires just over 3 hours hooked to a fueling station.

http://www.teslamotors.com/

 

[gedcruise]

Observing red lights and coasting to them, in which time they often turn green, is something any attentive driver should do. The brakes, after all, are merely converting the car's moving inertia into heat, so using the brakes needlessly is simply an inefficient way of burning fuel to heat the drums and rotors.
WRT the actual topic, who needs anything? Who needs a Corvette, or a Porsche, much less a Ferrari?
It isn't a matter of need, rather it is one of desire.
Now, spend a few more sheckles up front on a Prius, and you get a couple hundred thousand miles of assured low operating costs. If, or when, gasoline reaches its next price plateau, the Prius owner may rejoice in his wise choice.
Even if gasoline prices remain stable, the Prius driver still gets to enjoy a clever, technically interesting and carefully engineered car, that happens to be quite cheap to run. Toyota should be praised for what they have achieved. I find the Prius a more impressive piece of engineering work than any Lexus.

 

[Cutehumor]

Bror Jace

I agree with everything you said. the price difference plus the cost of those batteries is what kills the deal for me. This from a 12K a year driver.

 

[FrozenPilot]

The cost is a big factor. I get a pretty good average out of the Mazda 2.3, that matches the old EPA estimates, not the new scale. Everyone should at least be doing a couple of the hypermiler techniques (coasting to a red, maintain a steady state of throttle, etc.). Trying to hold a constant speed in traffic is nice when you dont have people cutting you off, I believe it even keeps the drivers behind you happier. Hypermiling wouldn't work in northern VA. Too much traffic. I had to even change my style of driving from central NY.

 

[refaller]

I suppose cost is what stops most of us. However, would you buy one if 1. you needed a new mid-sized car 2. you drove at least 15000 miles per year 3. a new car was economically reasonable for you. I don't have any of those requirements. However, following simple things allows me to get a minimum of 23 mpg from my 2000 CRV around town, 28 mpg on the highway. I believe that coasting to red lights has been the biggest benefit. Living in an area when a straight .5 mile stretch of road without any lights is uncommon does not help mileage (unless you have a hybrid). I have had people pass me across yellow lines to get to the next light faster. I usually wave when we get to the next light. Funny (in that sad sort of way) how angrily people drive.

ref

 

[ekpolk]

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Bror Jace

I agree with everything you said. the price difference plus the cost of those batteries is what kills the deal for me. This from a 12K a year driver.

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CH:

Here's a counter-thought: I've had my Prius for about 14 months now. I drive almost 40k miles per year, which of course, will exaggerate my savings (at least when time-miles are factored in).

With that in mind, and with gas at ~$3 per gallon, compared to the car I traded in (a G35 sedan), I've already saved enough money to install a brand new battery (which costs $2300). Assuming 37k/year (I rounded down a tad to be conservative), 23 mpg in the G and 44 in the Prius (a low figure...), that means I've saved over 800 gallons of fuel since I ditched the G in favor of the Prius. So far, my car is showing no indications at all of battery health issues, and this is proving to be an exceedingly rare problem in real life.

Sure, you pay more for the car, but it will earn that back too. I took it a step further, buying a nice, low-mileage used Prius. Mine was Toyota Certified, so for a couple hundred extra, I got full, bumper-to-bumper 7/100 coverage. And don't forget, you can get a new Prius for in the very low $20k range, depending upon what features you want (you can also find very loaded ones in the very high 20s, and absurdly decorated ones north of 30).

I would certainly not recommend dumping serviceable, economical cars early just to get a hybrid. When it's replacement time, however, they are, despite all the hyperbole to the contrary, very good choices for a lot of drivers (but not all, of course). I'd recommend that each potential buyer take a hard look at his or her actual needs, driving patterns, and personal preferences, and decide from there. Hey, we should all be thankful that we live in a country in which we can openly argue about such things, and make our choices based upon our own ideas, needs, and wants.

 

[javacontour]

That last paragraph is the key. Dumping a good car to buy ANYTHING is usually a bad economic decision.

However, I don't see a new ANYTHING as a good way to save money. Used cars are where the savings are.

I really don't see a scenario where the approx 15K used hybrid is cheaper than the $2500 - $5000 100K mile used compact car, if carefully purchased. I have experience with 4 such cars in the past 15 or so years, getting at least 3 years service out of each one without crazy repairs.

The worst was the first one, an '81 VW Rabbit Diesel that had the typical VW electrical and window regulator issues. I bought it for $700 in 1992 and drove it until 1995. In '95, I bought a '79 Fairmont for $100 and drove it about 50K miles over 3+ years, spending $1200 for maintenance and repair. (I didn't track fuel costs at the time, but mileage and it got about 20 on the highway.)

I think got the '87 LeSabre with 50K on the clock and put another 80K on it from 2000 until 2003, so about 25K /year give or take. TCO for that car was just under $0.14/mile when the buy and final sales price was considered.

Right now, my '94 Geo Prizm is at $0.127/mile and I've not sold it or traded it, so it's a low cost to operate.

As I've said many times before, for most people, the hardware is the largest cost. So even if I can double my fuel economy from 31.7 to 63.4 MPG until the car is less than about $1400 /year to purchase, the savings in fuel will not overcome the intial entry costs.

So while I don't distain the hybrid technology, I don't find a good economic reason to choose a hybrid.

I am hoping others don't do math as well as I do, so perhaps I can pick up those good cars dumped by those who want to "save money" with their hybrids.

 

[bob_ninja]

People keep getting lost in minor details. Of course there are other options. EKPolk is not saying that everyone must use a hybrid for every situation.

Of corse, if you don't mind using a small car then there are choices. I drive an older Civic hatchback that gets me about 45 mpg. Great.

Also if you drive less than 10K/year, heck drive a big rig, who cares. You drive so little that total gasoline consumption what change much from one vehicle type to another.

We are talking about an average driver who mostly DOESN'T use public transport for any number of reasons. I just don't have access to it from my home. No choice. Also we assume some non-trivial distance travelled, like 20K+/year. You know, commute to work, kids to soccer practice, etc. Then hybrid is for you.

If you have a kid or two, than a small compact car is not big enough. Also when you drive a lot then MPG differences add up to real money.

The other little detail everyone is ignoring is that the term "hybrid" is loosely used by many designs. Most achieve only small MPG improvements. Some like Accord hybrid was actually worse. Prius is one of the few designs that are more aggresive in trying to capture as much energy from ICE into batteries as possible. I would actually call Prius the only REAL hybrid.

Moreover, the next generation will increase battery capacity. Only then when a larger electric energy pool is available that can be changed from a house socket, will we be able to get real MPG improvements, close to 2x and 3x compared to conventional cars. The current Prius is nice and does a great job. Still, we need a convincing 2x and 3x MPG advantage to remove these doubts.

So when doing your math keep in mind that the next Prius and other copycats will be doing minimum 60 mpg!

Lastly, please don't bring up the exceptions such as Joe-heavy-foot only got 30 mpg in his Prius. There are exceptions for any car category and they'll always get the lowest possible MPG in any car, so what is the point????

 

[javacontour]

bob_ninja,

I don't know if your last post was directed at me.

However, if it was, I was pretty clear that my math figured in fuel economy 2x the current 31.7 MPG I've averaged over the past 100K+ miles.

So even if the new Prius can double my average fuel economy, at $3/gal for gasoline, and driving 30K miles/year it would 'only' save me $1400 in gasoline, but cost far more to purchase.

To get have the fuel savings meet the savings in acquiring the vehicle, I would have to drive close to 10 or 11 years and 300K to 330K miles to just break even between lower fuel costs and higher acquisition costs.

So if you really want to save money. If that is your #1 goal, look at the biggest rock in the jar, the cost of the vehicle.

 

[sciphi]

For people whose jobs require a lot of idling, such as pizza delivery, a small cheap car makes a lot of sense. And when OE parts wear out and can be replaced by ones that wring a little more efficiency out of the ICE, so much the better. I get 28 mpg from a 99 Hyundai Elantra delivering pizza in a suburban area, accelerating decently quickly from lights because the size of my next paycheck is directly related to how quickly I can get pizza to buyer. I tried shutting the car off at people's houses, and found my mileage went down. So it idles. At least the oil is surely up to temp.

I try timing lights very often, and am fairly successful. However, a fair number of attempts result in simply waiting less for the light to change. Sensor lights do mess things up. Fortunately they are few and far between.