Seriously, who needs a hybrid?

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Bob:

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I respectfully disagree re the size comparisons. While it's no behemoth, the Prius is not a "small car" in the sense of a Civic or a Corolla. People get fooled because of the odd shape of the car, and their preconceived notions to the effect that fuel sippers are always small cars.

To get an idea of how powerful the optical illusion effect is, consider the wheels. I'm always hearing from folks who think the wheels are tiny. While they are narrow (185 std, 195 touring) they are full 15 inchers on the standard car, and 16s on the Touring model. Yet even on a Touring Prius, the wheels still look diminutive, because of the car's proportions and shape.

Bottom line is that it's just a bigger car than a Civic or Corolla. You can compare them, of course, but that's really not any more "fair" to the Prius than it would be to compare the mpgs of a Camry vs a Corolla. Of course, the 'rolla is going to do better, it weighs almost 600 lbs less. The Prius outweighs the Corolla by over 450 lbs, and still gets better mpgs.

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First, I realze that price differences here in Canada seem to be much greater, so perhaps the price deltas in US are not that great.

That being said, I am not comparing them nor is fairness significant. Clearly vehicle price is one of the main factors for a buyer. I am stating/guessing that many buyers will sucrifice some vehicle space (downsize) for a lower price. In other words, many will downsize to a Civic/Corolla to save $10K (which would be the case here in Canada, maybe not in US).

I DO see Prius cars here, so people are buying them as well. Still for now Civic rules here.

Then again maybe it is stupid pricing here in Canada. At those prices you mention I would buy it today without second thoughts.
 
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.....Hybrids are good for heavy city only and people who fail to see that making batteries is a very non ecologically friendly thing.

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Funny how people are so eager to overlook this little tidbit, isn't it?
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False. It happens that I've put ~1200 miles on my Prius in the last 48 hours. Averaged around 45 mpg, but I was in a hurry and running 80-85 most of the way. When I slow to between 65 and 70, it's right up there in TDI territory. And it has 96 cubic feet of interior, unlike a Corolla, Ion or Jetta (closer to a Camry than those cars, for inside space).

The facts don't back it up, but the hybrid bashing just keeps rolling on. Kinda makes you wonder if there's a campaign of some sort being carried on.

Reliability? Did you miss my recent post about the guy with the Gen-I Prius who is at 315k miles, just changed his transmission fluid for the first time (all runs fine), AND he's on his original traction battery?

By all means, don't get a hybrid if you don't want one. I'm keeping mine.

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I was referring to the "total environmental cost" of the hybrid vs. a normal car. If I can find the article again, I'll post a link but I distinctly remember an article that said that when you factor in the toll on the environment that the manufacture of the battery backs takes, over the entire life of the vehicles it's more environmentally friendly to drive a Hummer H2 than a Prius.

Not that I'd want a H2 though...
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.....Hybrids are good for heavy city only and people who fail to see that making batteries is a very non ecologically friendly thing.

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Funny how people are so eager to overlook this little tidbit, isn't it?
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. . .

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False. It happens that I've put ~1200 miles on my Prius in the last 48 hours. Averaged around 45 mpg, but I was in a hurry and running 80-85 most of the way. When I slow to between 65 and 70, it's right up there in TDI territory. And it has 96 cubic feet of interior, unlike a Corolla, Ion or Jetta (closer to a Camry than those cars, for inside space).

The facts don't back it up, but the hybrid bashing just keeps rolling on. Kinda makes you wonder if there's a campaign of some sort being carried on.

Reliability? Did you miss my recent post about the guy with the Gen-I Prius who is at 315k miles, just changed his transmission fluid for the first time (all runs fine), AND he's on his original traction battery?

By all means, don't get a hybrid if you don't want one. I'm keeping mine.

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I was referring to the "total environmental cost" of the hybrid vs. a normal car. If I can find the article again, I'll post a link but I distinctly remember an article that said that when you factor in the toll on the environment that the manufacture of the battery backs takes, over the entire life of the vehicles it's more environmentally friendly to drive a Hummer H2 than a Prius.

Not that I'd want a H2 though...
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I do remember the article that you are referring to and its examples are false. The article had a comparison between a Hummer and Prius regarding the total cost of ownership, but the comparison was setup in a way that the Hummer lasted significantly longer than the Prius. The author of that article wanted the reader to believe that the Prius required battery replacement on a rather frequent basis (I do not remember the exact mileage). That just isn't true...there are a number of Prius owners with over 150k miles on their Prius with the original battery pack.

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Opus:

Mike is right, the article is bogus. It's the Art Spinella garbage I referred to earlier. Spinella is a paid mouthpiece hitman who apparently will say whatever his customers pay him to say, irrespective of the truth. Google him and get a look at some of his comments. I particularly enjoy his comments from July 2006 to the effect that hybrid sales were dropping off like a rock and that when gas prices spike, people buy Aveos, not Prii. Nevermind that a Prius is much larger and much nicer, but don't let the truth intrude.

As to the environmental comments, they're nonsense too. Think about it for a moment, the current hybrids, take the Prius as a prime example, are really just cars, nothing much different except the battery and a different, mechanically simpler (than an auto) transmission, with two motor-generators inside it. It's not as if the Prius's paint is radioactive, or its seats are upholstered with Siberian Tiger skin. It's body is mostly stamped and welded steel -- just like any other car.

Now compare an H2 Hummer. It weighs roughly twice as much as a Prius. All that steel has to be mined and converted into the finished product. It has a far larger engine, and a fair amount of its own hazardous materials built-in. And of course, it consumes roughly TRIPLE the fuel per distance that the Prius does. Virtually every other consumable involved in keeping a car on the road produces similar comparative results (tires, fluids, etc). The idea that the battery, which ironically is recyclable, makes the Prius some rolling poison machine, is just silly, but I'm not surprised Spinella has tried to make the argument. Mike is right, he set absurd battery life limits, and lied about how much the battery costs (I forget the numbers, but I think he estimated $7-8k, about triple what they actually cost). I'm surprised he didn't claim you needed gold-filled batteries too...

As I noted earlier in the thread, there's at least one guy I know about who has 315,000 miles on his original battery in his Gen-I Prius (which has suffered no other failures either). I guess Spinmaster Spinella will have to cook up another story about awful hybrids...
 
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2007 Hyundai Elantra. EPA rating is 37 highway. I get over 40mpg highway at a steady 70mph cruise, AC on. Interior volume is 98 cu. ft. - EPA midsize. You can buy one for under $15K. If Hyundai put a diesel in it, it would be perfect for me. The initial purchase price saving over a Pruis or other hybrid will buy a whole lot of fuel.

If I drove mostly in a city, then the hybrid would make much more sense. I haven't read anything recently about braking energy recovery for normal cars, such as using a turbine to (de)pressurize a cylinder which Ford are working on, but something like that would put the hybrid in a very tough niche.

Then there are the glorious claims of new battery (and/or supercapacitor) technologies which could shake things up a lot.

EEStor
 
Batteries are not easily made or recycled, it is an energy intense process that does involve a lot of pollution. Granted like you said there are paid media hitman that will say anything to get $$$. There is some truth to it though.
 
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With an electrically driven compressor, it could be driven by a variable speed motor and sized to do max cooling at an optimum speed rather than whatever the engine happens to be turning.

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Then there are variable-displacement compressors like what my Saab 93 has. Supposedly these are more efficient than regular compressors.

As far as how much current the Prius's AC draws, I believe those figures are low if you compare them to what a, say, 2-ton houshold central air unit draws, and consider that the household unit's condensing coil is a lot larger. I have read that the capacity of a typical car AC unit is in the 2 to 3 ton range and that is required due to the fact that it has to cool the interior of the car from, say, 150F to, say, 75F in a reasonable amount of time.

If those figure are correct then maybe Toyota ought to make central AC units...
 
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I'm buying my next vehicle in 5.5 years. I hope GM incorporates hybrid tech to the cobalt or some other platform. Price it at $15k. mpg 60mpg, I would be all over that.
 
pulling out of my work yard the other day and my coworker pulls up to me in his ford hybrid suv and we start talking about our cars at the red light. i asked him how many miles to the gallon he gets and i was surprised to hear 25. i couldnt believe it i thought all hybrids would get at least 35-40ish.
 
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I'm buying my next vehicle in 5.5 years. I hope GM incorporates hybrid tech to the cobalt or some other platform. Price it at $15k. mpg 60mpg, I would be all over that.

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The new Chevy Malibu, coming soon as a 2008 model, will offer a hybrid option. I don't think they'll pull off 60 mpg in a car that size with the technology where it is today. Maybe in ten years, but today, I doubt it. Still, it's nice to see GM offering the technology in a nice, mainstream family car instead of just the giant SUVs.

Click here for a look (caution dial-up users, large download).
 
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pulling out of my work yard the other day and my coworker pulls up to me in his ford hybrid suv and we start talking about our cars at the red light. i asked him how many miles to the gallon he gets and i was surprised to hear 25. i couldnt believe it i thought all hybrids would get at least 35-40ish.

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C'mon, no car or SUV, hybrid or not, is magic. The heavier the vehicle, the more fuel it takes to move it from Point A to B. You simply can't expect a Highlander hybrid to equal the performance of a Prius. Not going to happen. It will do substantially better than the gasser, especially in urban conditions. Twenty-five mpg in a vehicle that probably otherwise would average 15 isn't really that "bad" at all.
 
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C'mon, no car or SUV, hybrid or not, is magic. The heavier the vehicle, the more fuel it takes to move it from Point A to B. You simply can't expect a Highlander hybrid to equal the performance of a Prius. Not going to happen. It will do substantially better than the gasser, especially in urban conditions. Twenty-five mpg in a vehicle that probably otherwise would average 15 isn't really that "bad" at all.

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Ya but the vehicle in question is speced at 34/30 so 25 is an issue. The regular Escape wouldn't get 15 either unless driven like a race car. It should get minimum 20ish.

Obviously 40 is a strech but not the factory figures and a lot of hybrids don't measure up in this regard.
 
But Thermo, why are hybrids seemingly held to a standard of matching their EPA ratings, while everyone seems to accept that "normal" vehicles will always come up short? True, things should be getting better (that is, EPA closer to reality) with the new 08 measurement standards, but still, the hybrids will be tested the same as any other car or truck, and EPA should be seen as optimistic.

Second, mishandling a hybrid (intentionally or through lack of knowledge) can cause much more variation in their performance than would occur in a regular car (and whether this is a drawback to hybrids or not is a matter of personal opinion). Anyway, if for example, you drive with a very leaden foot, leave the AC on Max Cold indefinitely, or do something else that causes the ICE to keep running when the hybrid system would otherwise be relying upon the electric motors, you'll quickly tank your mileage. I strongly suspect if that number is correct, something like this is happening.

As with any car, users must read the book and follow the rules. Those who don't really don't have a leg to stand on when they get unexpected results.
 
It really great your enjoying your new car.

No one needs a hybrid however its another alternative on the market.

It similar that no one really needs a turbocharged higher powered motor but they are available. I love our two Subaru turbocharged manual transmission wagons that seem to only achieve 23MPG on premium. They are an absolute hoot to drive.
 
Exactly, what determines need? Do I need a new car- of course not, there would have to be a viable cheaper alternative used car somewhere. At some point we have to accept that we throw the word "need" around way to much. However, I will almost definitely seek a hybrid when I am in the market for a new car. I drive predominately alone, in a city, and very non-aggressively. I drove a friends Prius to the Home Depot. The gas engine never turned on and I gained battery power. Pretty awesome. Granted it was only a 6 mile trip, but it was awesome to see that. Driven properly, I have no doubts that it can accomplish the original EPA estimates.

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Wow. Its just not worth the safety risk those numbskulls do for fuel economy numbers. Not to mention illegal. Coasting engine off, tailgating. Search 'hypermiler' and check out their techniques.
 
I have an 07 Honda Civic Hybrid with about 1,200 miles. I bought it mostly because I wanted to see what all the fuss is about. It's quite a nice little car and interesting to drive, but so far has only averaged 38mpg in all city driving. I drive it more-or-less like any other car. The mileage would probably increase somewhat if I did all the silly things mentioned on some of the forums where the tree huggers post, but that's not why I have a car.

I think it is a technological marvel, although a little overly complicated for it's own good. I believe that hybrids in general are a technical dead end. Small turbo diesels would seem to be a more logical approach to increasing fuel economy, along with stretching crude supplies. Of course, the EPA seems dedicated to preventing widespread usage of diesel in cars by changing emission standard as fast as the manufacturers match existing ones. I was told by a Chevy mechanic that the exhaust system on a new Chevy diesel pickup costs around $3,000 to replace.All in all, there must be a better way than a hybrid.
 
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