Seriously, who needs a hybrid?

[moribundman]

Hey, I'm not willing to convert between idiotic and outdated non-metric measurements.

I expect my car to last another ten years. Then there will be too much traffic to drive anywhere, so I'm not worried about any future personal transport.

 

[jim_a]

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A Hybrid's strength is in stop and go city driving, not highway driving.

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Yes, that's so true. We made a 300 round trip last weekend in our Prius that was 95% highway driving and we only managed 55mpg for that trip.

 

[ekpolk]

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A Hybrid's strength is in stop and go city driving, not highway driving.

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That's true, but is a grossly overstated "issue" that is often relied upon by the anti-hybrid crowd. It's not as if the hybrids, at least the smaller ones like the Prius and Camry, do poorly on the highway. I have a CAN-View installed on my car, which allows me to monitor several dozen parameters, drawn right from the ECU, real-time on the car's own display. From this, it's apparent that even on the dead straightest flattest interstate, the Prius is rarely, if ever, in a true steady-state condition. It's always either leaning toward ICE power and storing excess power, or leaning away from the ICE by drawing power from the traction battery, driving the large MG. Again, the car is substantially larger than the Corolla and Civic, yet gets better mpg than they do just cruising down the Interstate.

 

[moribundman]

Stop-and-go and highway/freeway driving are often the same thing here.

 

[Camu Mahubah]

One begins to wonder if a smaller gas engine hooked up to a generator powering a large electric motor is feasible...that way the big battery is not so much needed...

 

[ekpolk]

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One begins to wonder if a smaller gas engine hooked up to a generator powering a large electric motor is feasible...that way the big battery is not so much needed...

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That's a valid question, but there are at least two problems built into it. First, the setup you describe, not unlike what's used to drive diesel locomotives, can be efficient, but of course, does not provide for any regeneration (energy recapture) as the current crop of hybrid cars do. I just love exiting from an interstate, where the decel and braking can put more than 10% capacity into the traction battery. If I handle the accel with care, I can drive the next couple of miles on "free" (or at least reused) electric-only power.

Second, you mention the "big" battery. At least for the current crop of hybrids from Toyota-Lexus, there is no "big" battery (assuming we're not going to quibble over the meaning of "big"). In a Prius, the thing is roughly the size of a thin medium suitcase, and it sits roughly above the gas tank (in a compartment within the confines of the car's body). And with the battery installed, you still get 96 cubic feet of passenger room and almost 15 cubic feet of cargo space (by contrast, numbers for Corolla and Camry are 90/12 and 101/15 respectively). In the Camry hybrid, however, the battery placement is a tad more awkward and it eats up about 4 cubic feet of the non-hybrid's trunk. I suppose that this reflects that the Prius is hybrid from the ground up whereas the Camry is not.

Remember, as I've said before, the current hybrid strategy does NOT call for a large, "bulk storage" battery. It is meant only as a short term energy buffer in which the energy captured on one stop pretty much goes out on the next accel. So the car has no need for a massive, heavy battery as in a pure electric car.

 

[MrCritical]

The Jetta TDI makes more sense in my rural area. In a city, I can see the Prius advantages. Plus I like the Jetta's looks.

 

[Bill in Utah]

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Again, the car is substantially larger than the Corolla and Civic, yet gets better mpg than they do just cruising down the Interstate.

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Not here. The 3 times now that I have gone from Salt Lake City to St George with 2 of my co-workers in a Prius, the MPG has been in the low 30s to high 20s. Plus the little engine that could screams @ 5000 ft and up once the battery is gone.

The same trip in my little Corolla

makes the same trip with MPG over 40 mpg.

I do have to down shift on some of the grades, but so does our Crown vics when we take one.

The worst vehicle we have had was a 1993 dodge Caravan that ran on dual fuel (gas and Natural Gas) Did well in the snow (heavy, low power and wide/long) but sucked on the highway and grades. MPG was lucky to be in the low teens while on the bottle.

But it looked nice for the state not polluting.. (nevermind that most people who drove them kept the car running on gas)

Take care, bill

 

[ekpolk]

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The Jetta TDI makes more sense in my rural area. In a city, I can see the Prius advantages. Plus I like the Jetta's looks.

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As to personal taste, I certainly won't begrudge you yours. As to which car is "best" for any given operator, I've been moving away from the simplistic "hybrid for city, diesel for highway" dictum that so many seem to buy into without much thought analysis. First, personal taste is certainly a valid consideration for the one who will be spending his or her money on a car.

Second, as I mentioned above, the diesel highway "advantage" is nowhere near as clearcut as it might seem. If one's driving involves any amount of congested highway driving, or driving in rolling hilly terrain, the hybrid will close much, if not all, of the gap between it and the diesel. Then there are the secondary factors, which for some, may be as important as anything else. For example, if you live waaaay out in the sticks, the ease of availability of diesel, or perhaps which dealer (or just mechanics for your car) are readily available. If I lived where there was a VW dealer 50 miles away, but the nearest Toyota store was 150 miles away, I wouldn't even think of buying a Toyota hybrid, and I'd be happily tooling about in my TDI. Heck, for a lot of drivers (dare I say mostly female?), just the slime and stink factor of diesel fuel might be enough to push them to a hybrid alternative (it's been over 20 years since I did my two-year stint driving diesel busses and I haven't forgotten what it was like when you got that stuff on yourself or your clothes).

Diesel and hybrid technologies are both workable, yet distinctly different solutions to the fuel economy puzzle. Individual buyers should do some hard, careful analysis and decide which one is best for their unique set of circumstances. Make the choice, drive, and be happy.

 

[Lonnie]

I want to add some comments about the Prius. In a motor pool that contains a dozen or so Prius's it is the car first taken, always. The Prius has been the most reliable vehicle in the inventory over five years of any car in any of the fleet operations that includes thousands of vehicles and about two hundred Prius's. In large cities when one commutes on the freeways this is still a lot of stop and go driving and putting along at slow speeds. Driving a Prius efficiently takes learning new skills and those skills are rewarded in real time. People that have never driven a Prius are quick to trash mouth the car. People that have any time at all in the car usually don't. The most critical comments come from those that do not have a clue about how the car works and how it drives.

 

[ekpolk]

Bill, you keep focussing upon one narrow operating condition that only a very small slice of the driving public will ever encounter. And unless you commute daily to the top of a mountain, even members of that small slice won't encounter this issue, except when climbing their long hill.

On top of that, when making this narrow point, you never acknowledge the other side of it -- you know, the "what goes up must come down" part. If you do have to climb a long hill, and exhaust the traction battery in the process, at least you'll get a nice strong full charged battery when you come down, and you'll get to re-use that energy later.

In the last couple days, I've put huge miles on my Prius. First I drove from Pensacola to Tampa, about 450 miles. Then I drove Tampa to New Orleans, about 650 miles. Tonight it will be 200 back to Pensacola. The terrain between Mobile AL and Ocala FL (all I-10 or I-75) consists of mixed rolling hilly terrain, with elevation never exceeding about 300 feet MSL (no altitude induced nosebleeds here...). The rest is almost table-top flat.

During this drive, I never saw anything close to battery exhaustion. Just not a factor at all. As for the engine screaming, that's overselling the point a tad, IMO. This engine is "artificially" governed to 5000 rpms. That's both for fuel efficiency, and I suspect because of the offset crankshaft (which allows the power stroke "leverage" on the crankshaft to be maximized). I take mine to 5k rpms frequently (though I realize it's not helping my FE). I actually like the sound of this engine while it's revving. Even at 5000 rpms, it's still very smooth, though you can hear it going. I liken it to a coked up sewing machine.

Again, you're absolutely correct about battery exhaustion in very long hill climbs, but from my perspective, your harping on it is like calling a supermodel ugly just because she has a little mole on the side of her face. I have over a year of ownership and almost 40k miles in a Prius-II, and I've never once encountered this problem. Not once.

 

[ekpolk]

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I want to add some comments about the Prius. In a motor pool that contains a dozen or so Prius's it is the car first taken, always. The Prius has been the most reliable vehicle in the inventory over five years of any car in any of the fleet operations that includes thousands of vehicles and about two hundred Prius's. In large cities when one commutes on the freeways this is still a lot of stop and go driving and putting along at slow speeds. Driving a Prius efficiently takes learning new skills and those skills are rewarded in real time. People that have never driven a Prius are quick to trash mouth the car. People that have any time at all in the car usually don't. The most critical comments come from those that do not have a clue about how the car works and how it drives.

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[Bror Jace]

Obesity closer to 25%-30% in US (probably holds true for most of North America):

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/trend/maps/

ekpolk, You say the battery in the Prius doesn't weigh a lot ... that's rather subjective. Do you know the figure in pounds? Even an extra 50-80lbs is significant for me. I conciously go through my car and strip out all the weight I can ... mostly travelling with the car 95% empty unless I'm coming back from the store with food, etc ...

Because there is no gas-only version of the Prius (nor diesel-only), I am going to dig a little and compare the latest gas-only Civic to the same car using a hybrid configuration. I can only assume that Honda is close to Toyota in this technology.

In real world conditions, I can get over 40mpg in my 2006 Civic 5-speed. However, I've been doing a lot of downtown-city-only driving and my mileage has dropped to a shameful 38mpg.

 

[c502cid]

ekpolk, you are assuming just a little here in Bills case. Maybe just a little East coast centric (no worries, us in the West see that in a lot of things). Lots of us drive mountain passes regularly and lots of us just commute from Denver to the foothills, I have a 1200 climb just coming from the airport to home. The Prius works for you. Lonnie, I and many people don't want a car we have to "learn skills" to be rewarded. We want to get in, start her up (I didn't say turn the key!) and drive. People are critical about it because we dont want a car that takes a tech person to show us the in's and outs of how it works "to be rewarded". I love the technology, but all the stuff you guys who love the car talk about over and over gets to be a bit overwhelming. It is not a car for everyone. You guys love it and that is great, more power to you, but I don't see the need to argue it's points out to the people who don't. It's a different technology than most of us have in our everyday drivers, thats all.

 

[Bill in Utah]

But for some that is their commute (like from Park City to Salt Lake).

But I agree that in rolling hills (300 ft high is the hill behind my house. The mountain is the 11,000 foot one behind the hill

) like your driving style is seeing at low elevations the Hybrid works.

I still think the "payback" is still unknown. You have to pay more for the car and still, lets see how the car does once the fleet sees 150k or more down the road. (not just a few but the thousands and thousands get on with age) They are more complex than some other cars out there...

They have to be.

But, after seeing what VW has been putting out the last few years, I'd get a Toyota (and did) over a VW... (boy that statement will get some comments...

)

And thats from someone who loves VWs (my 1986 Jetta is still going strong with NEVER an issue and is coming up to 320k) When I went shopping for a new car in 2005 sadly, I never went near the VW dealer. Seen enough.

To me, 4-5k RPM (which is where the Prius seems to like to be when going up hills) is screaming. My Corolla with the same load makes it up with a downshift and 3500 rpm.

When we leave St George and start climbing up to Cedar city, the batteries are not helping about 15 miles into the trip. I think larger betteries are needed if the small engine is going to have to depend on the batteries to assist.

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it's still very smooth, though you can hear it going. I liken it to a coked up sewing machine.

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Yep, thats the engine to me too. I guess screaming is not a good term.. Sorry. Its smooth, but just having to hear it working makes the old bones feel wierd..

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Again, you're absolutely correct about battery exhaustion in very long hill climbs, but from my perspective, your harping on it is like calling a supermodel ugly just because she has a little mole on the side of her face. I have over a year of ownership and almost 40k miles in a Prius-II, and I've never once encountered this problem. Not once.

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But its such a big mole!

Come up to the valley where the floor is 4700 feet, then anywhere you want to go is 6000 ft pass min. You'll see that any engine unless it has a Turbo, looses power quickly.

Take a 3000 lb car and give it only 70 something HP, use up the batteries and wola, MPG and performance will suffer.

The TV stations here all have had stories on people buying Hybrids and getting up to 1/2 the "rated" (which we all know is a joke) EPA mileage.

One person who was on the news is a yuppie Park City was complaining that she only sees about 25mpg in her car. And then in the next statement said the Tahoe she traded in got 12 mpg but "atleast" it had performance up the steep grade that she drives everyday.

My wife said to the TV when the story was on, "at least your using HALF the fuel for your single body". (and one less SUV to collect out of the ditch when the snow falls....)

(at least she will slow down..)

Again, sorry for the screaming engine comment..

Take care, bill

 

[ekpolk]

Bror:

There's a welter of confusing figures out there as to battery weight. The confusion, I suspect, comes from the fact that the Prius-I and II are different and different figures may be battery only or with associated hardware (attachments, cooling fan and duct, and so forth). I'd estimate that with all associated hardware, we're talking slightly under 100 lbs.

On the other hand, we're talking about a car that is closer to the Camry in size and volume, and yet has a curb weight of only 2932 lbs (current figure from Toyota). I'd counter that the overall weight control and aero improvements pretty much counter-balance the extra weight of the battery.

AND don't forget that comparing the Prius-II to the Civic or Corolla is inherently misleading (whether you're talking mpgs or utility). Again, this car is closer to a Camry in size and volume than it is to either Civic or Corolla. Therefore, statements that one one gets "x" mpg in a Civic, so why get a Prius are really "apples to oranges" comparisions. I'm not going to worry about a Prius's performance until gasser Camrys and Accords approach or beat its performance.

BTW, for reference, here is what the battery actually looks like. Obviously the rear seat and cargo area interior are removed. When parts are in, cargo floor is flat to just above the top of the battery, and there's a "basement storage" area between the spare tire cover and the main load floor.

c502:

There are plenty of "just drive" Prius owners who still do great with the mpgs. For some of us, the data displays, which are really easy to read, make it a fun game to work to get the very most from the car. But no, as with any car, it's not for everyone.

As to my earlier comment being East coast-centric, there are still plenty of left coasters who drive in the mountains and don't have a problem. This is a repeat topic on Priuschat, and only in the most extreme mountain climbs does battery exhaustion ever become an issue. And then, it's only an annoyance, the car will still get from A to B just fine, but with less performance and slightly more noise.

 

[ekpolk]

Of course Bill, you'd be welcome in our secret Prius society, but of course, I would not recommend this car for you any more than I'd recommend an Accord or Civic for a rancher who has to cover 50 miles or more of rutted dirt roads every day to do his job. One should of course select a vehicle whose operating characteristics are matched to the need. I've yet to see one car or truck that's right for everyone, and the Prius is no exception. It would be interesting to see how another hybrid that's not so strongly biased toward fuel economy would behave in your terrain. For example, the 08 Highlander's ICE is a 3.3L V-6 (for some reason, it didn't get the 3.5 like the gasser) that makes about 210hp/210 ft-lb on its own. I'm sure you'd notice the electric side dropping off line, but I'm pretty sure the truck would still move fine. Of course, the Highlander's FE delta compared to the gasser is fairly slim too.

I'm pretty confident in the long-term success and pay-off of this design, both generally and for me individually. As with any car, there have been a handful of issues, but for the most part, they're doing fine long-term. Again, there's one guy who has over 300k miles on his Prius-I, on the original battery, and he didn't even get the TSB battery upgrade everyone was supposed to have (IIRC to fix some connections and seals). Now they don't fix, but offer to replace the whole unit; he's holding on to his to see how far he can stretch the thing.

Oh yeah, one more thing. This is certainly not for mainstream drivers, but there are a few hardy pioneers who have installed their own second batteries down in the spare well, and rigged them in parallel with the original. Such a setup drastically increases their capacity. Might be just the thing for you long hill climbers.

 

[Bill in Utah]

cool photo of the batteries. Larger that I thought.

One of my co-workers says there is a guy who has a 2004 Prius and has a few batteries in his trunk (the deep cell ones for trolling motors) and plugs in his car at work and night. His commute from Salt Lake to Sandy (about 20 miles in the valley, so no steep grades) is all stop light to light and can make his commute on battery power alone.

I'd LOVE to see (for myself. heck, I've made the offer for him to hook me up with a ride and I'll buy lunch) this Prius setup. If all I had to do is start the engine for the Point of the mountain (about 300-400 foot grade between my home and SLC where I work) during my commute now we are talking. I put on some serious miles (my 2005 has almost 90k on it) and I think being able to someday being on battery power for most of a commute would be nice.

Just need to build a nuke power plant and we would be set...

Take care, bill

PS: if I do ever hook up with this guy, you bet the camera will be with me! Photos will be posted.

 

[c502cid]

Ekpolk, I'll give you credit, you get it! Thanks for not taking the side of the kool aid drinkers and since I rented one, I'll never take the side of the bashers. You are ok in my book!

 

[c502cid]

My apologies since I'm probaby violating terms here but I thought you hybrid guys might want to see a Prius being parted out for relatively cheap. Here is your chance to play with one and make all your mad experiments come true!
Denver Craigslist ad #418050110