Secret Service carries .357 Sig?

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Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: donnyj08



It penetrates hard barriers well because it uses a decent grain bullet at a relatively high velocity. A 125 grain round running 1300-1500FPS has good velocity and energy. Its downfall is that it costs a lot, and it limits capacity compared to a 9mm. Capacity is the same as .40 S&W chambered guns. overall energy is about the same as .40 S&W rounds when comparing data on ballistics 101. Its velocity is what gives it the ability to penetrate well through glass and light steel.

Back to cost when considering a .357sig. A hot 9mm round from buffalo bore or Corbon will propel a 9mm 115gr +p bullet out to 1300-1400 FPS. A hot +P or +P+ 9mm in the 115gr to 124gr weights will provide similar penetration as a 357 sig for a lot less money.

The velocity is almost the same, and the bullet weight is similar. The .357sig has a slight advantage in all out performance, however the 9mm smokes it in price, availability, and capacity. The 357sig also has considerably louder blast as it is a necked .40 case.

In short .357sig is BA, but it is not half as practical, and its performance is not exponentially greater than 9mm or .40S&W

They are all weak compared to Rifle rounds. Ballistic wise most semi-auto handgun loads perform pretty much the same. The .357 sig is a stellar performer and is probably the round the .40 should have been from the beginning, but it is far to expensive to be practical.

Id love to have a sig P320 in 357sig, but i dont want to feed it. at $37 a box of 50 for target ammo its expensive to shoot.

I can shoot 9mm for a third of that and .40S&W for half. its a no brainer. The means for extra training with 9mm or .40 is far more important than any ballistic advantage the .357sig may or may not offer.



You can't compare Buffalo Bore/etc specialty 9mm ammo to Speer and Federal duty Sig ammo. Underwood has 125 Gold Dots hitting 1500+ out of 4 inch Glocks. Apples to apples the Sig wins against the 9mm. If you look at the Speer ballistic charts the Sig penetrates more than 9mm/40/45 almost every time. A big plus if you're trying to win gunfights. You do lose a couple rounds in the mag but if you're shooting to slide lock in 13+ cap guns I doubt the last few rounds are really doing too much.

357 Sig ammo also isn't $40 a box. You can get it very easily for $20/box of 50. Cost is really a non issue. If you do shoot a lot there's no requirement to shoot .357 Sig exclusively. And you'd already have a reloader. Most people shoot two or three boxes a year, maybe.


I'll accept that. Here is a better comparison using two popular LE loads.

9mm;

-Federal 124gr +p HST velocity= 1200fps
-Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot Velocity = 1220fps

.357sig

-Federal 125gr HST velocity = 1350fps
-Speer 125gr Gold Dot velocity = 1350fps

9mm in duty loads offers ~90% of the velocity at a lower cost.

For me to buy .357sig I have to pay $37 for a box of 50 FMJ locally. You can find it online in the $20 range but you have to tack on another $8 a box to ship it. In Indiana that is fine as it is a "free" state. Many in other states do not have the option to have ammo shipped to their doors.

I can buy brass cased 124 grain FMJ 9mm locally for $12.95 a box of 50 to practice with. I can also buy brass cased 165gr FMJRN .40S&W locally for $15.95 a box of 50 to practice with. Even if I order .357sig online it is at least twice the price to practice.

Due to .357sig having a necked case it is also a lot harder to reload. It is definitely cheaper, but more of a pain than straight cases.

I am a fan of the .357sig. I think it is an awesome round, but it just isn't as cost effective yet. I hope it catches on in the market and gets more popular. As i stated in another post I am going to purchase a sig p320 in .357sig in the future. I have no hate for the round, quite the opposite, but the truth is 9mm can do 90% of what .357sig can at half the cost or less.
 
.357 SIG is indeed a cool round, but it is heading toward being boutique ammo not away from it. 9mm has reached the pinnacle of it's ballistic capabilities. Once thing I never get though, in the 9 vs 40 debate is people point out that 9mm has evolved to better ballistic effectiveness today-- more powerful than 20 years ago but then point to .40 as if it has been stuck in time and no improvements exist ballistically over the early .40 cartridges.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, today .40s&w can match or in some cases edge out .45acp in straight up ballistics numbers.

Bottom line with any round, is it's defense effectiveness relates strongly to the bullet technology i.e. the bullet's ability to dump all of it's energy into the target at the optimum time.
 
357Sig is a gateway caliber. I mainlined straight to 9x25.

Cool thing is I can use some of my 9mm and 357Sig dies along with my 9x25 Dillon dies. Win-win.

I must say watch the sales and deals. I've never paid more than $20 box/50 for plinking ammo.

I did just buy 500 rounds of Rem 357Sig for $179.50 from SGAmmo. And during the banics it's one of the calibers people are not really hoarding. Point being, the gun show jackals didn't put a new price tag sticker over the old prices.
I bought all the residual 357Sig ammo and brass from a ammo company in Idaho (got all their 6.8SPC as well) that was closing shop. That was huge score, everyone had bought the 9mm, 10mm, .223, etc.

Sigs and Glocks in 357Sig.
 
Originally Posted By: BubbaFL
I don't think they should carry weapons.

The guy they follow around told us gun-free zones are safer.


That's because his voters perpetrate 85% of gun crimes and he is afraid to lose his voting base due to LEO response.
 
I am not sure why penetration keeps coming up. Penetration is not needed in human targets and is a bad thing. I think the .40 looks great ballistically on paper but over penetration is a problem. You want a round that stays in the target and expends all the energy within the target. The idea is not to poke holes and pistols do not have the energy to do much more. If that was the case .44 magnums would be the best stopper and they are not.
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I am not sure why penetration keeps coming up. Penetration is not needed in human targets and is a bad thing.


We are talking about a duty round for a law enforcement agency. An agent may have to shoot through barriers, such as car doors, auto windshields, furniture, walls, etc. You can't see the benefit of this round in those scenarios to a law enforcement officer? Many highway patrol agencies in this country have gone to the .357 Sig round due to this rounds ballistics around cars, which tends to be the basic job description of a trooper is working around cars...

I surmise that the Secret Service went to this round because it has great ballistics and great stopping power, and possibly because in almost all instances where a person is shot with this round, they are incapacitated in the first or second shot at a much higher percentage than the other common duty pistol rounds.
 
Agreed. Agencies tend to want or need ballistics that fit their typical operations. Police agencies that serve population dense jurisdictions may lean away from capable barrier penetrators like .357SIG and more toward sub sonic or near sub sonic .45ACP for example. Over penetration is a concern for any agency from a civil liability perspective and one thing that drives policy these days is make sure you cya on liability. Need barrier penetration ballistics in a population zone? Patrol supervisor calls up SWAT.
 
Originally Posted By: donnyj08


I'll accept that. Here is a better comparison using two popular LE loads.

9mm;

-Federal 124gr +p HST velocity= 1200fps
-Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot Velocity = 1220fps

.357sig

-Federal 125gr HST velocity = 1350fps
-Speer 125gr Gold Dot velocity = 1350fps

9mm in duty loads offers ~90% of the velocity at a lower cost.

For me to buy .357sig I have to pay $37 for a box of 50 FMJ locally. You can find it online in the $20 range but you have to tack on another $8 a box to ship it. In Indiana that is fine as it is a "free" state. Many in other states do not have the option to have ammo shipped to their doors.

I can buy brass cased 124 grain FMJ 9mm locally for $12.95 a box of 50 to practice with. I can also buy brass cased 165gr FMJRN .40S&W locally for $15.95 a box of 50 to practice with. Even if I order .357sig online it is at least twice the price to practice.

Due to .357sig having a necked case it is also a lot harder to reload. It is definitely cheaper, but more of a pain than straight cases.

I am a fan of the .357sig. I think it is an awesome round, but it just isn't as cost effective yet. I hope it catches on in the market and gets more popular. As i stated in another post I am going to purchase a sig p320 in .357sig in the future. I have no hate for the round, quite the opposite, but the truth is 9mm can do 90% of what .357sig can at half the cost or less.
The Gold Dots I carry are rated 1375 fps. The 1350 ones are limited penetration. If you're going to go strictly on cost/performance there is no other round than 9mm. I also have never paid over $20/box for Sig target ammo. And I have never bought any online. The ammo shortage has driven up prices. WM use to be $16.xx for WWB before Obama took office. Glad I stocked up a little. A guy on Armslist was selling for around $20 not long ago but I didn't need any. It will come back down. Something else to look at is blaster 9mm/.40 ammo is usually pretty lightly loaded. Sig blaster is "full power" 1350fps. If you're a fan of the round you should get one. You have other guns to shoot in addition. A Glock 35 with Sig barrel would be a beast with Underwood ammo.
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I am not sure why penetration keeps coming up. Penetration is not needed in human targets and is a bad thing. I think the .40 looks great ballistically on paper but over penetration is a problem. You want a round that stays in the target and expends all the energy within the target. The idea is not to poke holes and pistols do not have the energy to do much more. If that was the case .44 magnums would be the best stopper and they are not.
You have conflicting angles here. You correctly state that pistols don't have much energy, so why worry about it all being transferred into the target. Pistols work mainly by wounding. A deeper wound is far superior to sightly larger but shallower wound channel. Ideally you want the round to travel all the way through and drop out the other side. What you don't want to do is come up short. The Miami FBI shootout was all about a single Winchester Silvertip that came up a little short. Two more inches and the whole story changes.

Any quality modern duty round is not going to "overpenetrate" enough to worry about. Just don't carry ball ammo that zips right through.

Bottom line. Penetration in your intended target is a good thing. A whole lot more stuff to damage the deeper the bullet goes.
 
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People talk about the stopping power of the 125gn .357 Magnum. Well I saw a test on the 357 Sig vs the 357 magnum. The .357 Sig just blew away the straight cased 357 magnum. I like my 9mm's but if I was looking for a gun to fit between my 9mm and the .45 acp that I presently use as a daily carry, the .357 Sig would be at the top of my list.
 
Originally Posted By: ALS
People talk about the stopping power of the 125gn .357 Magnum. Well I saw a test on the 357 Sig vs the 357 magnum. The .357 Sig just blew away the straight cased 357 magnum. I like my 9mm's but if I was looking for a gun to fit between my 9mm and the .45 acp that I presently use as a daily carry, the .357 Sig would be at the top of my list.
The .357 Sig can't blow away the .357 mag. The mag is far more powerful and any Sig load can easily be replicated.
 
Originally Posted By: ALS
Really?

357 Sig vs 357 Magnum

I'm a Colt Python owner so I know my .357 Magnums.
You need to sell the Python and use the money to see an optometrist. The Sig is a great round but it's not a .357 mag. Look at the numbers posted below your post. The mag is 200 fps faster than the Sig with 125 grain bullets. 125s are the Sigs best weight. Once you go heavier the mags advantage will only widen. The mag can launch 200 grain bullets about as fast as the Sig can launch 147s.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I am not sure why penetration keeps coming up. Penetration is not needed in human targets and is a bad thing.


We are talking about a duty round for a law enforcement agency. An agent may have to shoot through barriers, such as car doors, auto windshields, furniture, walls, etc. You can't see the benefit of this round in those scenarios to a law enforcement officer? Many highway patrol agencies in this country have gone to the .357 Sig round due to this rounds ballistics around cars, which tends to be the basic job description of a trooper is working around cars...

I surmise that the Secret Service went to this round because it has great ballistics and great stopping power, and possibly because in almost all instances where a person is shot with this round, they are incapacitated in the first or second shot at a much higher percentage than the other common duty pistol rounds.


This where law enforcement is really getting themselves in trouble nowadays. They need to stop thinking tactical and they need to shoot through cars, walls and buildings. Why not just give them grenade launchers and MP5 sub-machine guns. Regular police are not military and they are not special tactical units. Secret Service I would consider a special operations group that may deal with more than your average outlaw. Police should be practicing accuracy more than raw firepower. I think Police were sufficiently armed with .357 magnum revolvers. They shot less and more accurately with revolvers although penetration was greater. You didn't hear of a person shot 16 times. The problem is law enforcement decided they wanted to take a para-military role with advanced firepower, something that doesn't belong with public citizens dealing with average law enforcement agencies and will lead us to where we are now heading. As far as the Miami shoot-out, no handgun will match a rifle for firepower. A .357 magnum well placed will stop anything with two legs, body armor or not.
 
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