Second Partticle Counts Complete

[garageman402]

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garageman402,

I take my Civic to the Honda dealers for the oil change. I am able to thouroughly go over the undercarriage at that time, looking for anything amiss. When the filter is removed, it is as full of oil as is possible. The Eao filter holds oil very well, don't use the Honda filter, piece of junk.

Harry

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Thanks, Harry. Do you know if the filter was taken off right away after shutdown, or did it sit for a while? I took one off right away, and it had oil in it. The third one I let sit overnight, and it was dry (talking about Honda filters). Haven't taken off the K&N yet, it only has 500 miles on it, but I'm really liking the PC results from the Eao.

You are using an Eao 20, right? Did you say something about using an oversize Eao 36 in another thread? Depending on which chart you read, the gasket size is/is not the same. Did the Eao 36 have a lower bypass setting? Maybe the longer element is more susceptable to collapse from higher pressures? I've always been a fan of more surface area, what do you think?

Bob

 

[harry j]

When the filter is removed, it is usually whithin 15 minutes of shutdown. When the car is started, the oil light goes out in less than a second, normally and after the filter has been changed, no noticable difference. The Eao20 is the filter I use, the Eao36 has the same thread pitch and the can's diameter is the same. The gasket size is a bit different, I will have to analyze the difference and the mounting surface width to see if the swap is possible. The bypass pressures are the same in the Eao filters, which was not the case in the oil SDF filters.
I would welcome a larger surface area and it's attendent larger oil capacity. I think the media of the Eao filters and their ability to filter similar to a bypass setup, really makes going to the larger filter unnecessary as 100% of the media passes and filters the oil.
I also think that synthetic oil is better used with this filter. The reason is that synthetic oil has little or no VI improvers that could potentially be stripped out of the oil under high heat, hi stress conditions. The syn oil is said to run cooler than conventional oil and this has been my experience. Conventional oil may have some of it's VI improvers stripped out with this filter, more tests have to be done on this issue.

 

[4esorselrahc]

An oil filter that may filter too well? That's a hard one to grasp.

 

[harry j]

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An oil filter that may filter too well? That's a hard one to grasp.

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I agree, GeorgeCLS has observed this problem using 6 micron filters.

 

[TeeDub]

George,

They may never let you use the corporate washroom again...
Oh, wait I forgot you're an engineer and not a bean counter.

Thanks for the data - I'm frankly surprised you'd see this much difference after only 1500 miles in an engine that doesn't seem to wear at all based on used oil analysis....

Ted

 

[4esorselrahc]

How large are the components (microns) of the VI improvers? I'd think sub micron may cause trouble, but even one micron (one millionth of a meter) doesn't seem that bad. I'd think molecules should pass that pretty easily. Purely speculative on my part. Just trying to learn.

 

[TeeDub]

I wanted to add that Amsoil claims 98.7%, multipass efficiency @ 15 um with this filter media. George's results tend to support that, as there are essentially no particles > 15 um in his used oil sample....

 

[TimVipond]

You mean Amsoil was truthful in their advertising? No way!

 

[MADMIKE]

I love the idea that the oil filter is fast becoming a "semi-permanent" part only requiring annual replacement. I plan to start using the EaO for 12 month/25,000 mile intervals. (I'll still be changing the conventional oil every 4-5,000 miles but I'm going to leave the oil filter on for a full year which usually transalates to 22,000 to 24,000 miles)

 

[garageman402]

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When the filter is removed, it is usually within 15 minutes of shutdown. When the car is started, the oil light goes out in less than a second, normally and after the filter has been changed, no noticable difference. The Eao20 is the filter I use, the Eao36 has the same thread pitch and the can's diameter is the same. The gasket size is a bit different, I will have to analyze the difference and the mounting surface width to see if the swap is possible. The bypass pressures are the same in the Eao filters, which was not the case in the oil SDF filters.
I would welcome a larger surface area and it's attendent larger oil capacity. I think the media of the Eao filters and their ability to filter similar to a bypass setup, really makes going to the larger filter unnecessary as 100% of the media passes and filters the oil.
I also think that synthetic oil is better used with this filter. The reason is that synthetic oil has little or no VI improvers that could potentially be stripped out of the oil under high heat, hi stress conditions. The syn oil is said to run cooler than conventional oil and this has been my experience. Conventional oil may have some of it's VI improvers stripped out with this filter, more tests have to be done on this issue.

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Thanks Harry,

Have you noticed any noise on start-up? I have the D-15B7 engine, and I notice a little "tapping" the first second or two after start-up in the morning. As you know, these filters mount horizontally, above the crankshaft, so I'm thinking the oil drains out through the outlet (clean side), and down through the bearings, leaving the filter empty for every re-start. At least after sitting more than an hour. The oil light goes out quickly, but I think the sender is mounted near the pump. Any thoughts?

I am using Redline 5w30.

-Bob

 

[GeorgeCLS]

Regarding VI stripping. No, I do not see that as a problem with the Amsoil EaO filter. As I indicated, I only experienced this issue with a full-house 1 and 3 micron Beta 1000 filter. We are not even approaching that level of filtration with the EaO. That is the excellent aspect of the EaO from a lube engineer's perspective; it IS filtering superbly that spectrum of contaminants which DO create wear. From my experience in internal combusion engines, minimizing the >10 micron components is most important and that is what the EaO does very efficiently.

And yes, Tee Dub, you well know my thoughts on those laboratory produced graphs, especially when it relates to oil filtration. I have been bitten many times with ISO rated filters which failed to miserably in real world applications with pressure and flow spikes, constant vibration and different viscosities..
When the used oil is cleaner than the virgin oil going into an engine we have a winner in the EaO, and no equal at this point in time..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
(NOT an Amsoil dealer, never have been: no association whatsoever)

 

[Bill in Utah]

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When the used oil is cleaner than the virgin oil going into an engine

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George,

Please explain how used oil is "cleaner" than new oil once ran through the filter.

 

[Winston]

Back to Terry's question.

Did we ever find out the method used for the Particle Count?

 

[harry j]

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When the filter is removed, it is usually within 15 minutes of shutdown. When the car is started, the oil light goes out in less than a second, normally and after the filter has been changed, no noticable difference. The Eao20 is the filter I use, the Eao36 has the same thread pitch and the can's diameter is the same. The gasket size is a bit different, I will have to analyze the difference and the mounting surface width to see if the swap is possible. The bypass pressures are the same in the Eao filters, which was not the case in the oil SDF filters.
I would welcome a larger surface area and it's attendent larger oil capacity. I think the media of the Eao filters and their ability to filter similar to a bypass setup, really makes going to the larger filter unnecessary as 100% of the media passes and filters the oil.
I also think that synthetic oil is better used with this filter. The reason is that synthetic oil has little or no VI improvers that could potentially be stripped out of the oil under high heat, hi stress conditions. The syn oil is said to run cooler than conventional oil and this has been my experience. Conventional oil may have some of it's VI improvers stripped out with this filter, more tests have to be done on this issue.

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Thanks Harry,

Have you noticed any noise on start-up? I have the D-15B7 engine, and I notice a little "tapping" the first second or two after start-up in the morning. As you know, these filters mount horizontally, above the crankshaft, so I'm thinking the oil drains out through the outlet (clean side), and down through the bearings, leaving the filter empty for every re-start. At least after sitting more than an hour. The oil light goes out quickly, but I think the sender is mounted near the pump. Any thoughts?

I am using Redline 5w30.

-Bob

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Yes Bob, I have noticed a momentary noise opon startup, less than a second at most. We have the same engine, and you know that they start instantly and jump to 1,600 RPM just like that. A quick flowing oil and the Eao filter is a needed combination in this engine. I don't think the ADBV is designed to maintain a residual pressure on the oil system. That is you will have to get pressur

ized oil to the bearing areas and this takes time.

 

[GeorgeCLS]

Re: particle count methodologies. We used both laser and pore blockage, essentially same results.. The results were *so* good on the first laser, had pore blockage "just make double sure".. Again, it is such a rare instance where ISO counts reduce by more than 1 or 2 counts with the first filter changeout, I was a little taken back with the 4 ISO reduction.
Thus the re-runs, the delay from my original posting...

Regarding the used engine oil "cleaner than new oil". What it means is that the used engine oil with the Amsoil EaO oil filter has signficantly less particulates/abrasive contaminants (is cleaner) than the new oil poured out of the bottle. Not to say that new oil out of the quart bottle is "dirty", it is just not as pristine/ultra clean as the Amsoil EaO filter enables.
There is just so much filtration that is practical for an oil manufacturer to do in new oil. So, new oils are filtered and clean, just not "ultra clean" as my used engine oil is from my Toyota Sequoia..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[Gary Allan]

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Re: particle count methodologies. We used both laser and pore blockage, essentially same results.. The results were *so* good on the first laser, had pore blockage "just make double sure".. Again, it is such a rare instance where ISO counts reduce by more than 1 or 2 counts with the first filter changeout, I was a little taken back with the 4 ISO reduction.
Thus the re-runs, the delay from my original posting...

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This would appear to bolster the notion that the pore blockage method is, at least in this circumstance, just as valid as the more factual method. That is, while one is allegedly more "real" ..it's not (apparently) any more accurate and that projected/factored distributions are proven to be essentially just as valid.

This would make the use of the pore blockage method "make sense" since it is used so widely in the market. If it didn't "work" it would sensibly be discarded due to lack of being a valid indicator

 

[harry j]

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Re: particle count methodologies. We used both laser and pore blockage, essentially same results.. The results were *so* good on the first laser, had pore blockage "just make double sure".. Again, it is such a rare instance where ISO counts reduce by more than 1 or 2 counts with the first filter changeout, I was a little taken back with the 4 ISO reduction.
Thus the re-runs, the delay from my original posting...

Regarding the used engine oil "cleaner than new oil". What it means is that the used engine oil with the Amsoil EaO oil filter has signficantly less particulates/abrasive contaminants (is cleaner) than the new oil poured out of the bottle. Not to say that new oil out of the quart bottle is "dirty", it is just not as pristine/ultra clean as the Amsoil EaO filter enables.
There is just so much filtration that is practical for an oil manufacturer to do in new oil. So, new oils are filtered and clean, just not "ultra clean" as my used engine oil is from my Toyota Sequoia..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

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George,
Sounds like bypass filtration territory.

Harry

 

[GeorgeCLS]

Yes, Gary, regarding pore blockage. There are many instances where laser just cannot be used: period.... Only in cases of very clean engine oil (mine!) can laser even be considered; pore blockage is the usual method for engine and gear oils and works pretty well, actually, from my experience. It certainly enables numbers where laser returns none, thus enabling quantitative results for increased filtration, by pass filtration, for direct comparisons.. Pore may not be perfect but when it is all you have for some lubricants, better than nothing...
I have no issues with pore blockage, depending on the lab. Since a technician is involved, variability can exist in some labs; human element... Good lab, good results; mass market lab, well.....
George Morrison, STLE CLS

 

[427Z06]

While the Ea0s filter is looking very good from all the evidence collected so far, I'd still like to see a comparison PC done for a "normal" OCI to close the loop. Something like the latest M1 offering compared to the Ea0 for 7500-10,000 miles. Terry has hinted that the Ea0s are holding up quite well in the scenarios he sees, but I'd still like to see some quality data, such as George has provided here, during a more typical OCI.

By the way, Goerge, what was the insoluble values for the two filters tested here?

 

[garageman402]

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Yes Bob, I have noticed a momentary noise opon startup, less than a second at most. We have the same engine, and you know that they start instantly and jump to 1,600 RPM just like that. A quick flowing oil and the Eao filter is a needed combination in this engine. I don't think the ADBV is designed to maintain a residual pressure on the oil system. That is you will have to get pressur

ized oil to the bearing areas and this takes time.

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Thanks Harry,

I understand it's not holding residual pressure, I just wish it would hold oil in the filter so that on the initial startup the oil in the filter can be pushed into the galley instead of compressing the air in the filter and sending that through the bearings. I agree that a fast flowing oil is needed.

Did you say you're using 0w-30? How is that working out? We have about the same mileage (210,000). The factory calls for 5w30 conventional, so I presume that a lower viscosity synthetic would hold up better under heat, and be faster flowing during cold starts. We are in about the same climate minus the humidity..........

Sorry, GeorgeCLS, didn't mean to hijack your thread

Thanks again for a "real world" test of the Eao. Wonder how it holds up under many, many pressure impulse fatigue cycles?

Bob