Scientific Test - Synthetic vs. Conventional?

[SplashnGo]

Has anyone ever seen a long-term test of the effect of synthetics vs. convetional oil? While it would be hard to get two engines exposed to the exact same real-world usage, what about any kind of labarotory test under controlled ciscumstances simulating, say, 100,000 or 200,000 miles of driving? Solely to compare, under highly controlled conditions, the performance of synthetic to conventional. Be interesting to see.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

No. Just pseudo-science marketing from the oil co majors with no statistical relevance whatsoever. Go by the oil specification and TDS, not what the bottle lable says. No "true" synthetics sold around here in chain stores anyhow. Full synthetic typically = high detergency oil ONLY. That means most all non-euro Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platinum and Ultra; Castrol Syntec, Valvoline that say full synthetic on the label = NO synthetic in the bottle.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I just feel synthetics are good for their cleanliness and purity. That`s the only reason I use them,to keep the engine internals clean. As for wear,imo synths and conventionals are probably equal.

 

[bepperb]

Consumer reports did something like that. They saw no differences I believe in Taxi cabs.

Still, where Synthetics shine (turbo apps, sludge prone engines) I haven't seen a good comparison.

Another source of scentific testing that would be the manufacturer specific tests. For example, HTO-06 only a few synthetics pass so obviously there is a difference there.

 

[bepperb]

"No "true" synthetics sold around here in chain stores anyhow. "

Goil is as synthetic as possible, and at walmart.

 

[Pablo]

No such study exists. Just dudes wording it out on the 'net.

 

[TTK]

Good point bepperb...very good. Now, perhaps we won't have to hear that again, and again, and again.... about only euro oils are full synthetic.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Consumer reports did something like that. They saw no differences I believe in Taxi cabs.

Still, where Synthetics shine (turbo apps, sludge prone engines) I haven't seen a good comparison.

Another source of scentific testing that would be the manufacturer specific tests. For example, HTO-06 only a few synthetics pass so obviously there is a difference there.


Agree with above, however to add a little more background, Consumer Reports's study was in 1996 (15years old). CR themselves also noted that their study might not reflect the other benefits and more testing would be intesting (quoted in wikipedia below).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil#Advantages

Along those lines, note that there are no other studies in Wikipedia, if a formal scientific study that passes oil nerd scrutiny was done, it would be posted there by oil nerds.

But by the same token, because a study has not been done does not mean the advantages do not exist.

Case in point, the myth on clogged air filters reducing MPG.
This was up for years on fueleconomy.gov government website and based on a 1970s study with carb. engines. This was up until as recently as late 2000s, even though dudes on the net were already speculating it should not apply to fuel injected computer controlled modern cars.
Still, this information was quoted as truth all the time because it remained on the website.
Only perhaps in late 2000s they changed the website saying new study pending, then recently (2009) the Oak ridge national labs finally finished the new study on a modern FI car.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/maintain.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/Air_Filter_Effects_02_26_2009.pdf

So the point is, that it takes a long time for a study that can pass scrutiny to be done. And things change over the years. If you pony up the couple hundred thousand to run the study properly I'm sure you can get it done, but keep in mind an Oil study will take much longer to cook up than a MPG study.

That being said, it seems with modern chemical engineering, the performance gap between conv. and "synth" is closing, both are now highly processed more that previously and "synth" now comes from cracked groupIII now anyway. By the time your study finishes, there'll be new and improved oils that need to be retested.

 

[HTSS_TR]

For OCI's of 10k miles or longer, synthetic oil is needed in many engines. Mercedes learned that lesson with a multi-million dollars lawsuit early 2000's:

"U.S. District Judge Franklin S. VanAntwerpen has approved a settlement worth more than $32 million in a class action suit against Mercedes Benz brought by owners of cars manufactured from 1998 to 2001 who claimed they were never warned that use of non-synthetic motor oils would cause premature engine wear.

As part of the settlement, 351,439 class members will each receive a $35 voucher toward a scheduled service, which includes an oil change. Mercedes-Benz USA also agreed to modify its warranty to cover the costs of repairing any damage caused by the problem.

Plaintiffs claimed that Mercedes-Benz vehicles were equipped with a defective “Flexible Service System”. The system is designed to monitor the vehicle’s driving condition and alert drivers when the car requires an oil change. The alleged problem with the FSS occurs when the driver uses conventional oil instead of synthetic oil.

In March 2001, Mercedes-Benz sent all vehicle owners a letter that recommended switching over to pure synthetic oils for all FSS-equipped cars to prevent engine damage."

http://www.legalnewswatch.com/185/judge-approves-settlement-worth-32m-in-mercedes-benz-case

 

[Steve S]

Syn oils have their advantages. They last longer and hold up better at extreme heat and cold depending on which base stock they are formulated from. Todays conventional oils make syn oil unless recommended by the MFGs not really of advantage " seen enough engines at work to say so. If you use all the advantages that syn oils offer they can be a good deal if not you are wasting your money. Will syn oils make a difference in engine life? it depends again if syn oils advantages are needed.

 

[ottotheclown]

Can you ever imagine this web site if that was ever done???? We could draw a conclusion!!! OMG!!!!

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Syn oils have their advantages. They last longer and hold up better at extreme heat and cold depending on which base stock they are formulated from. Todays conventional oils make syn oil unless recommended by the MFGs not really of advantage " seen enough engines at work to say so. If you use all the advantages that syn oils offer they can be a good deal if not you are wasting your money. Will syn oils make a difference in engine life? it depends again if syn oils advantages are needed.


I don't think that was the OP's question. He was asking about scientific studies or proof of the benefits; not what are the alleged benefits themselves.

 

[glum]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Consumer reports did something like that. They saw no differences I believe in Taxi cabs.

I remember a relatively recent thread about that. I responded because it struck me as nonsense. Can't remember the specifics but I do remember it was nonsense (their conclusion that syn was not worth it).

 

[steve20]

^^^
That was useful

 

[moto94536]

You don't have to agree with me. Synthetic Oil didn't increase gas mileage.

I get excellent gas mileage with conventional API SN/ GF 5.

 

[charbaby]

Has anyone here actually read a bad UOA, syn or dino?
And, what constitutes a bad UOA? Don't answer that as I already know!

I know more people such as myself that have put on 300K+ miles using any oil from the lube shop although I do my own OCI's.

All of the used oil analysis that I have read look pretty good reguardless of mileage. Oh sure, there are the ones that have gone way too many miles and the ware particles are high. Or the known IMG leakers that show coolant in the oil(a good catch). Or the UOA that shows fuel dilution and the oil has sheared to the next lower grade. But, is it killing the engines? Probably not!

I think we're all afraid of loosing the engine just after warranty or something and it just isn't happening! The last person that I know who lost their engine, is a friend of mine and they just recently bought a new Buick Enclave. And at 11,000 miles, Kaput!. SUV was dealer maintained as the SUV was still brand new and under warranty. Nothing was going to save the engine as it just decided to die. 3 oil changes in the first 9K miles and the oil/filter was just changed before this couple headed out on vacation from Western NY to Phoenix,AZ(2K+ miles) when they arrived in Phoenix, the engine was toast. Who knows why, it just happened. The Buick dealer in Phoenix/Scottsdale covered the warranty repair. They have made this trip many times over the years in lesser vehicles using lesser oil.

I have gotten rid of more vehicles with several hundred thousand miles on them using what ever dino of the day(SE/SF or SF/SG) and 4-5 K OCI and the rest of the car fell apart, the interiors were still clean and the paint still somewhat shiney and while the drive train was fine, not new running/idling but, fine just the same with still good MPG.

While I was getting water in the trunk, strut towers rotted, frame had holes/rot and unsafe to drive any longer(each vehicle had a different rotted area). These are the reasons that I junked the cars while the engines were still OK. Unfortunatly I live in the salt belt for winter driving otherwise I could keep my car longer than the 16-18 years that I have been keeping them before they literaly break in half.

I blew a brake line in my driveway one day a while back. Good thing I was just getting home. So, I was going to have the car('84 Plymouth) towed to the station down the street as it was FEB'01 and there was 6" of snow and I wasn't crawling under the car. The tow truck was pulling the car onto a FLATBED and was literaly pulling the car apart. I didn't realize how bad it was or I would have gotten rid of it sooner. Guess what? I junked the car instead! The tow truck just took the car to a bone yard. This type of thing has now happened to me three times.

If I wanted a junk yard at my house and my neighbors wouldn't complain, I may have parts'd out the good stuff and then junked the rest but, that's not gona happen. Do you know how hard it is trying to sell 18 year old car parts?

I you live in a nice area of the country where you can keep a vehicle for 30 years without it falling apart, then use the best oil you want but, after being a member here at Bob's, I am not only going further on my OCI's but, I using just about anything on sale for the reasons I have mentioned. The drivetrain will usually outlast the rest of the vehicle even while the engine has had only minor maintenance). Who am I saving the engine for?

Now, I'm not saying...not to search, study, chat/discuss about oil(this is what I love about Bob's) nor am I suggusting not to change your oil with syn. I am saying, "what are we all worried about"?

Don't kill me! Everyone know that I write stories.

 

[dbrowne1]

VAG did a "study" over the course of about 10 years with a "N" over a million, called the longitudinal 1.8T engine - and the results say that conventional oil, especially on a 10K interval, sludges small sump turbo engines, leading to class action lawsuits.

 

[dbrowne1]

The main benefit to synthetics for the common user, aside from the potential for extended drains, is their superior low temperature pumpability.

You can't even make a conventional 0W-xx oil, and if you live in a cold climate I'd bet that synthetic would have some measurable effects on start-up wear and load on the battery.

 

[antonmnster]

I really have to agree with Char Baby. I've never had an engine failure, and I've never heard of one that was either preventable (people driving around with known problems that they neglected) or manufacturer defect.

Cars here die because of rot, or driver stupidity in the winter. Now all of the 30-40 year old cars that I saw on a recent trip to CA, maybe oil matters more for them. But probably not even then.

 

[mechtech2]

The problem with any study like this is that there are so many different engines, and widely varied conditions in which they operate.
How can all things be tested in all ways?

We could end up with an oil that may be 8X better! [Like Castrol Edge in a super isolated way]