Saturn Fan's Berryman's B-12 Post

[c3po]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Funny, I wasn't looking for a fight, yet I feel like I have to defend myself for saying something other A-Rx worked for me. Why? MMO worked for me, Kingrob and a host of others. Do I have pictures and proof? No, I wasn't a BIOTG member and never needed to prove to anyone if a product worked or didn't work. We share knowlegde and opinions. I know MMO works, I've seen results. I think I've been pretty civil in the way I conduct myself also.

I stated I use A-Rx (and am happy with it) as well as MMO, is that so bad?

Frank D


I want to say that I have enjoyed reading everything here, hopefully we are not fighting, but exchanging information and that is the important thing here. If MMO works for somebody that is fine, it does not make it any better or worse than any other product out there. We are all posting our observations, we can all learn from what people are posting here.

I just dumped my Differential Fluid that had Auto-Rx in it for 1000 miles. I was not able to take pictures, but I did save the old fluid.

My gears had some slimy goo on there, it was a dark color, after I drained the fluid with Auto-Rx in there the gears looked almost brand new. There are still a few places on the gears that have some discolorization. When I put the new gear oil in I plan on adding an ounce of Auto-Rx and running that fluid for about 20,000 miles.

As I have said before, I cannot comment about MMO since I have never used it, again anyone who has used any of these other oil additives please post your observations and do not feel that you have to defend what you have done.

The only time you may need to defend yourself is if you say some oil additve gave you an extra 10 m.p.g.

 

[kingrob]

Originally Posted By: BrianWC
Originally Posted By: kingrob
Not going through this again,


then why bring it up?

Originally Posted By: kingrob
but it would take me about six bottles of ARX to accomplish what one bottle of MMO does. That's why I put it at the bottom of MY list.


I would put it at the bottom for harshness but not effectiveness. But that's just me from my personal experience. A product can be effective without stripping boundary lubrication.

Quote:
Also Frank, why is it you talk about ARX's mild cleaning abilities, so when I rank it bottom of the list BECAUSE it is so mild you get offended? It's mild, it's weak, it's arguably safer, but it is not a strong engine cleaner. Being that it does have engine cleaning abilities, I put it on my list. If frikkin' WINDEX was known for its engine cleaning abilities it would have been on there.


See above. I dunno, I know everyone's experience is different, but as I point out in my experiences using B-12, arx did more. It's a different method of action than solvents who's purpose is to just be run through and dissolve quickly and be done with it.

Quote:
When it comes to ARX there's so much dam doubletalk and political "the right answer for the right situation" I'd be scared to death to use it had I never heard of it.


I think it "sounds" like doubletalk when put up against the traditional solvent flush products. But when you wrap your head around the fact that there are products out there that work differently than the traditional "add this to oil to instantly thin out and remove gunk," you see it's not doublespeak. It's a paradigm shift.

Quote:
My post was NOT to bash ARX but since the pro-ARX crowd has once again rallied to their cause I say again: SEPARATE ARX FORUM.


This doesn't make sense. It is an oil additive that is used to clean deposits from your engine. Every thread doesn't HAVE to turn into WWIII. People just choose to take it that way.


Brian, the only reason I mentioned any of the products was to demonstrate my judgment of how harsh they were in attacking deposits in an engine. It then turned into a peeing match when folks started criticizing me for mentioning ARX in the same breath as the other products on the list. This has got to stop- it's one thing to defend a product you like but there is a thin line between being supportive and being overzealous in your support. This is the main reason Jim quit posting here, and it's a big reason this particular forum is one I skip over almost entirely until someone mentions a product other than ARX.

ARX is the MILDEST product I've ever used in regards to engine cleaning. Not saying it doesn't eventually get your motor spiffy, but nowhere near the rate of the other products on my list. The whole point of ARX according to Frank (or not according to Frank, depending on what statement he's replying to) is to GENTLY clean your engine the safe and effective way- how did I post anything contrary to that? ARX is not as strong as the other chemicals I've listed, and why anyone would want to argue that is beyond me. It's like saying one beer is equal to an entire fifth of Scotch- they'll both get you drunk; but it will take you several more bottles of beer to get to the state one bottle of whiskey will put you. ARX is the Miller Lite of engine cleaning products- MMO is the Jim Beam and GM TE Cleaner is the Everclear. Can anyone understand what I'm saying?

Guys, when someone mentions ARX in a fair comparison to other products on the market, there's no reason to jump up and start beating your chest. I feel like the only way to avoid flames and retorts is to flat out lie and say ARX is the best thing I've ever poured into my motor. It's not, but it does have its place. I never meant to turn this into another "ARX is not an engine additive, do not speak of it in the presence of lowly engine solvents" argument.

It's funny you mention paradigm shift- I believe the shift on BITOG occurred when people started asking questions about ARX and not just swallowing hook, line, and sinker. This was seen as a huge backlash against the overzealous keepers of the faith, now it's at the point where the paranoia involving ARX is so great any seemingly dissenting point of view is seen as a rally against the status quo for no apparent reason other than to rattle the cage a bit.

People should be allowed to freely post their experiences with any product without fear of starting nuclear armageddon. I stand by my observation that ARX is the mildest engine cleaning formula I've ever used, and that is in no way a put down- no matter how much you try to slant it!

Quote:
The only time you may need to defend yourself is if you say some oil additve gave you an extra 10 m.p.g.


Everybody knows the only way to achieve that big of a jump is to install a K+N Air Filter.

 

[Frank]

Quote this accurately Auto-Rx cleans metal it does it safely and it does it better than any other product on the market. Auto-Rx takes time to work however you don't have the consequences that comes with solvent based products. In the past i worked side by side with the inventor of a well known friction reducer. I made batches of solvents so close in composition to industrial strength the left over could be sold as paint thinner.My health issues are a direct result of treatment needed after years of solvent applications.

The Fleet Taxi Test is what Auto-Rx can do if application is followed.In case it escaped your reading we tested the existing solvent products in the same test.

Please e-mail me your order data i want to look it up.

As far as this board is concerned Auto-Rx and Tony started together. If that is upsetting e-mail the new owner.

 

[greenaccord02]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
It's like saying one beer is equal to an entire fifth of Scotch- they'll both get you drunk; but it will take you several more bottles of beer to get to the state one bottle of whiskey will put you. ARX is the Miller Lite of engine cleaning products- MMO is the Jim Beam and GM TE Cleaner is the Everclear.


If you used MMO and Auto-Rx at the same time, would that be like a boilermaker?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilermaker_(cocktail)

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
No, it should be at the very bottom. It's cleaning is VERY mild, just ask Frank.



Mild, as in non harmful to any of the engine components. It contains no harsh chemicals, unlike everything else in your list. It slowly removes the deposits, safely allowing your oil filter to catch them. The others (perhaps with the exception of MMO) will remove the deposits quickly, and potentially in larger chunks. Chunks can clog oil passages, starving parts of the engine of lubrication.

Auto RX also provides extra protection while it does the cleaning. You can't say that about the other products.

I ran MMO before I used Auto RX, and the Auto RX is what made the improvements.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Originally Posted By: kingrob
It's like saying one beer is equal to an entire fifth of Scotch- they'll both get you drunk; but it will take you several more bottles of beer to get to the state one bottle of whiskey will put you. ARX is the Miller Lite of engine cleaning products- MMO is the Jim Beam and GM TE Cleaner is the Everclear.


If you used MMO and Auto-Rx at the same time, would that be like a boilermaker?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilermaker_(cocktail)

Only if you poured it into a shot glass and then dropped into a beer.

Frank D

 

[kingrob]

Quote:
Please e-mail me your order data i want to look it up.


For what?


Quote:
As far as this board is concerned Auto-Rx and Tony started together. If that is upsetting e-mail the new owner.


That doesn't bother me at all. Helen is doing a great job and Tony (RIP) is sorely missed. This is STILL the best oil forum in the world. What bothers me is that I can't even accurately state my experience with ARX without getting bullied for "order data". Let's see Gary and Pablo do that when someone brings up Amsoil.

 

[BrianWC]

Quote:
Brian, the only reason I mentioned any of the products was to demonstrate my judgment of how harsh they were in attacking deposits in an engine. It then turned into a peeing match when folks started criticizing me for mentioning ARX in the same breath as the other products on the list. This has got to stop- it's one thing to defend a product you like but there is a thin line between being supportive and being overzealous in your support. This is the main reason Jim quit posting here, and it's a big reason this particular forum is one I skip over almost entirely until someone mentions a product other than ARX.


I think part of the reason is people who have used it hate to see it mischaracterized.

Quote:
ARX is the MILDEST product I've ever used in regards to engine cleaning. Not saying it doesn't eventually get your motor spiffy, but nowhere near the rate of the other products on my list. The whole point of ARX according to Frank (or not according to Frank, depending on what statement he's replying to) is to GENTLY clean your engine the safe and effective way- how did I post anything contrary to that? ARX is not as strong as the other chemicals I've listed, and why anyone would want to argue that is beyond me. It's like saying one beer is equal to an entire fifth of Scotch- they'll both get you drunk; but it will take you several more bottles of beer to get to the state one bottle of whiskey will put you. ARX is the Miller Lite of engine cleaning products- MMO is the Jim Beam and GM TE Cleaner is the Everclear. Can anyone understand what I'm saying?


I understand what you are saying completely but I think your still misunderstanding what I am saying. I've seen with my pseudoscientific (according to some) before/after pics that arx actually worked better than the "harsh" stuff. That's the point I was trying to make in my last post. You can't classify arx with the traditional flush solvents. It's not meant to be some sort of arx superior dance. It's just a statement of fact. Arx is not a flush solvent and isn't intended to be used in that manner.

My point is trying to differentiate between harshness and effectiveness. Some of the better solvents are also fairly harsh and not exactly the best thing for bearing surfaces in your engine. That does NOT have to directly equate with cleaning effectiveness. However, in the language of traditional flushes it usually does. That's why, I rate B-12 higher than MMO and Seafoam. It makes no bones about what it's there to do-melt deposits the best it can.

Quote:
Guys, when someone mentions ARX in a fair comparison to other products on the market, there's no reason to jump up and start beating your chest. I feel like the only way to avoid flames and retorts is to flat out lie and say ARX is the best thing I've ever poured into my motor. It's not, but it does have its place. I never meant to turn this into another "ARX is not an engine additive, do not speak of it in the presence of lowly engine solvents" argument.


I agree completely. But the point that was being made is that you can't make direct comparisons just based on perceived harshness.

Quote:
It's funny you mention paradigm shift- I believe the shift on BITOG occurred when people started asking questions about ARX and not just swallowing hook, line, and sinker. This was seen as a huge backlash against the overzealous keepers of the faith, now it's at the point where the paranoia involving ARX is so great any seemingly dissenting point of view is seen as a rally against the status quo for no apparent reason other than to rattle the cage a bit.


People have been questioning arx and others defending it as long as arx has been discussed on this board. This is nothing new. If you look at the people who have taken issue with arx, they are all people who have used arx and had it work. There is no incentive for me, I assure you, to defend a product that does nothing.

Quote:
People should be allowed to freely post their experiences with any product without fear of starting nuclear armageddon.


Methinks thou doth protest too much. This thread was very civil until someone got their feelings hurt about MMO.

Quote:
I stand by my observation that ARX is the mildest engine cleaning formula I've ever used, and that is in no way a put down- no matter how much you try to slant it!


If it was mild for you, it was mild for you. It wasn't for me. Does that make MY experiences of any less value? I think that's what gives me the biggest chuckle. All these people accuse people like ME of "drinking the arx kool-aid" and "staunchly defending arx no matter what." But heck, it's the only thing that really worked for me, mild or harsh. If I were endorsing anything else, I would THEN be being dishonest. But for me, to state that arx works is as easy as saying the sky is blue.

I think we all just need to be cautious about how we interpret each other's posts. We THINK people are saying mean things to us without REALLY knowing the context in which they are saying. The internet is great for paranoia.

 

[c3po]

I have read what kingrob and BrianWC have wrote and I have to say that you guys have some very good points.

Auto-Rx works slowly and MMO works quicker, so anyone reading this has to decide what product they want too use.

I decided to Google ( Negative Affects Of Oil Additives) and I came across a website that read, Are Oil Additves Needed.

They ran 2 Briggs&Stratton motors, 1 had an oil additve and the other 1 did not. They took the motors apart after the test was done and the motor with the oil additive had more wear. There conclusion was that the oil additive created more metal to metal contact.

I think that whatever product you use, it might be wise to ask yourself what is the long term consequences or benefits of the oil additive that you are using.

How is the product that you are using going to affect your seals in the engine that are made out of rubber.

It might also be a good idea to look up the oil additive you may want to use and type in ( Negative Affects Of Using Brand X Oil Additive)

This what I did with the product I am using right now, and I could not find any negative affects.

Remember what is important is that the product works for you.

 

[Gary Allan]

I see a pattern here (really, kr, there's a REAL HONEST BIG SMILE HERE)

Quote:
ARX is the MILDEST product I've ever used in regards to engine cleaning.


No problem ..although "mildest" sorta implies "weak" ..as in "ineffective".

Now this is different than saying, "I don't want to wait that long for results so I use more aggressive remedies".

Quote:
Not saying it doesn't eventually get your motor spiffy, but nowhere near the rate of the other products on my list.


Which sounds like, "I mean ..sure ..it .."works" ..if you've got time to wait around for the next ice age..but"

Quote:
The whole point of ARX according to Frank (or not according to Frank, depending on what statement he's replying to) is to GENTLY clean your engine the safe and effective way-





Quote:
how did I post anything contrary to that?


Well, on one Quincy show ..Quincy walks up to a near dead women who made a pilgrimage to a religious shrine. He says, "It's a miracle she's alive (in her condition)". The National Inquirer reporter quoted him.

It's a Miracle! She's alive!

Quote:
Guys, when someone mentions ARX in a fair comparison to other products on the market,


Here's where you get a rub. Auto-Rx really doesn't have any direct competition. Kinda hard to compare. You can name them all, MMO, and the rest ..and they all have varied level of effectiveness in deposit removal, they all tend to fall into the solvent class of petroleum distillate and are either require perpetual use or very limited usage ..and they all radically alter the host oil.

As an aside, Frank has absolutely no love for solvent remedies. He dealt with them for years in the printing industry and has the cancer to show for it. That's one of the principle motivations for the creation of Auto-Rx to begin with. It's also why you'll catch a reflexive action when someone will group solvents with Auto-Rx. He doesn't want it associated with them.



Quote:
I feel like the only way to avoid flames and retorts is to flat out lie and say ARX is the best thing I've ever poured into my motor.


Not at all. There are quite a few who troll here. Remember dargo? Look up the user name and check the vast majority of his posts. Nothing at all productive and never having any apparent goal other than being a PITA. They're trolls. Often times they don't even have a dog in the fight (so to speak) and just seem to enjoy being troll-like in "piling on".

Frank is going to be Frank. He's not going to retreat from his passionate stance on the product.. He's a big boy and can take his lumps. What frequently these types of warmer discussions turn into is others insulting those who have used Auto-Rx ..and somehow inferring that they're under some spell ..or that Auto-Rx has mind numbing properties that put the user into a trance if they found it good.

As you can see, the "flame" appears to travel in both directions

..and I do sorta think that other products would be better served in a separate forum and it would probably limit the cross chatter.

 

[kingrob]

Quote:
No problem ..although "mildest" sorta implies "weak" ..as in "ineffective".

Now this is different than saying, "I don't want to wait that long for results so I use more aggressive remedies".

Which sounds like,
"I mean ..sure ..it .."works" ..if you've got time to wait around for the next ice age..but..


Thanks for putting this into perspective. I meant nothing disrespectful towards ARX in terms of its cleaning ability. If you go back and read my first post on the subject in this thread I note that GM TE Cleaner is so harsh I almost passed out from pouring it in my spark plug holes. ARX is something I wouldn't be afraid of getting on my skin. It's a mild formula designed to safely (ie, slowly) clean out your engine. That's always been my propagated impression of it.

And yes, if I pour something in my engine I want to see results as soon as reasonably possible. When I used ARX it was kind of like "hmmm, should I order several more bottles and do this procedure over and over again, or should I just use MMO once and be done with it?" Once again, YMMV but I gave it a shot and was unimpressed with the ferocity in which it attacked my sludge gremlins.

The European side of me wants to sit back with a bottle of wine and some Mozart while ARX does it's duty, the American side of me wants to blast some Ramones and hit my motor hard and fast. Maybe Frank should should market more towards the "wine, cheese and chocolate" crowd. Have Ricardo Montalban ooze "Eeees gooooood for jour motor, like seeeelk sheets on a hwarm summer day."


Quote:
Here's where you get a rub. Auto-Rx really doesn't have any direct competition. Kinda hard to compare. You can name them all, MMO, and the rest ..and they all have varied level of effectiveness in deposit removal, they all tend to fall into the solvent class of petroleum distillate and are either require perpetual use or very limited usage ..and they all radically alter the host oil.


Well, notice I didn't say "similar products on the market", I said "other". Like I said before; I was comparing products that we BITOGers would be familiar with that were known to clean engine internals. If Mr. Clean or Windex were popular choices for cleaning your motor up, I would have thrown them in too. If ever I used ATF to clean an engine, I would have ranked that up there somewhere.

Quote:
Not at all. There are quite a few who troll here. Remember dargo? Look up the user name and check the vast majority of his posts. Nothing at all productive and never having any apparent goal other than being a PITA. They're trolls. Often times they don't even have a dog in the fight (so to speak) and just seem to enjoy being troll-like in "piling on".


I agree 100%. There's idiots that have never even used the product that want to come on and stir the pot just for the sake of flames. That's why I took offense to Frank asking for my order info, as if he was trying to imply that I've never used ARX. I'm not lazaro, folks. My pitbull's in the ring, and these are just my honest observations.


Quote:
Frank is going to be Frank. He's not going to retreat from his passionate stance on the product.. He's a big boy and can take his lumps. What frequently these types of warmer discussions turn into is others insulting those who have used Auto-Rx ..and somehow inferring that they're under some spell ..or that Auto-Rx has mind numbing properties that put the user into a trance if they found it good.


See above... Frank has an empire to maintain and doesn't like it when someone points out a result that doesn't fit in with what he thinks/wants/knows his product is capable of. I call it like I see it, I don't like stepping on toes, but if it means I have to be a dissenting voice then so be it. Frank has a product and integrity to keep, and his is a rare voice on this forum, a manufacturer who takes an active part in trying to keep the view of his products at the level he sees it deserves. This is where the flame wars begin. It's not so much a question of whether or not ARX is a good product. Obviously a lot of members here like it. But it does seem a little unfair to have to defend yourself from people that have adverse reactions to the honest results you've had from using the same product.

Conversely, I'm not a spokesman for Marvel Mystery Oil. I think it's a fine product and have used it for years. It's the most versatile of any engine product I've used, but I don't think it's a band-aid answer for any problem that may arise from your application. Somehow, these talks always end up being an MMO vs. ARX title bout. That was not what my post was about, but once again I felt I had to defend my use of MMO even though I was trying to point out that Berryman was a strong engine cleaner, but not the strongest.

This was a thread about Berryman B12, which is another product that is used to clean engines. I understand Frank not wanting to be associated with solvent based products, but if you're listing chemicals that are used to clean engine internals then ARX should be allowed to be mentioned without being criticized for not being in the same league as the other products. If ARX had a separate forum on this board, the people who took issue with my groupings could have quoted my post and started a whole 'nother thread in the ARX forum and this thread could have remained about Berryman B12, c3po, Saturn_fan, and group hugs.

 

[Gary Allan]

(insert hands across America .kumbaya sing along ..or happy dance around the fire, here

)

 

[c3po]

Its amazing where this thread has gone:

1) Saturn Fan
2) Berryman's B12
3) MMO

Lets try to keep things civil.

 

[BrianWC]

Originally Posted By: c3po
Its amazing where this thread has gone:

1) Saturn Fan
2) Berryman's B12
3) MMO

Lets try to keep things civil.


So which one of those is the most effective?

 

[panthermike]

Originally Posted By: BrianWC
Originally Posted By: c3po
Its amazing where this thread has gone:

1) Saturn Fan
2) Berryman's B12
3) MMO

Lets try to keep things civil.


So which one of those is the most effective?

 

[c3po]

I would have to say that Saturn Fan is the most effective, let's keep posting about different oil additives since we may all learn something.

 

[BrianWC]

Originally Posted By: c3po
I would have to say that Saturn Fan is the most effective, let's keep posting about different oil additives since we may all learn something.


I thought we were!

I'll discuss anything.

 

[c3po]

I thought it would be interesting if we all read this again, and I learned quite a bit from reading all of these responses. You can see what many on here think about auto-rx and MMO as well as a few other oil additives.