Saturn Fan's Berryman's B-12 Post

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Yes, but I believe it has had its current makeup for some time now. At least as long as bitog has been around.

Now, as a parts cleaner, the stuff is hard to beat. But as I said in my earlier post, it just didn't do anything, especially for the scarey squeaky noises I heard after refilling the engine. Perhaps that's why some of the (IMHO) less effective flushes have an oiler base???
 
Berryman B-12 is strong, but I don't believe it's as potent as GM Top Engine cleaner. DO NOT ATTEMPT to even open a can of that stuff unless you're outside in the front yard or something. Just pouring the GM TEC down my combustion chamber made me almost pass out.

As far as cleaning, here is how I rank conventional products that many of us BITOGers have experience with:

Strongest to Mildest: GM Top Engine Cleaner, Berryman B-12, K+W Engine Flush, Seafoam, Marvel Mystery Oil, Auto RX. This is in terms of engine solvent properties as well as top end cleaning (although I've never used the K+W for air intake or combustion soaks).
 
Not going through this again, but it would take me about six bottles of ARX to accomplish what one bottle of MMO does. That's why I put it at the bottom of MY list.

Also Frank, why is it you talk about ARX's mild cleaning abilities, so when I rank it bottom of the list BECAUSE it is so mild you get offended? It's mild, it's weak, it's arguably safer, but it is not a strong engine cleaner. Being that it does have engine cleaning abilities, I put it on my list. If frikkin' WINDEX was known for its engine cleaning abilities it would have been on there.

When it comes to ARX there's so much dam doubletalk and political "the right answer for the right situation" I'd be scared to death to use it had I never heard of it.

My post was NOT to bash ARX but since the pro-ARX crowd has once again rallied to their cause I say again: SEPARATE ARX FORUM.
 
Originally Posted By: kingrob
Not going through this again, but it would take me about six bottles of ARX to accomplish what one bottle of MMO does. That's why I put it at the bottom of MY list.


To accomplish what exactly? MMO is good in the fuel system for sure. But if you were to put both in the crankcase, the MMO won't clean as well as ARX.

Not being a smart A**, just asking because that is a strange comparison.

BTW, not bashing your original LIST at all. It's just your opinion.
 
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Originally Posted By: kingrob
Not going through this again, but it would take me about six bottles of ARX to accomplish what one bottle of MMO does. That's why I put it at the bottom of MY list.

Also Frank, why is it you talk about ARX's mild cleaning abilities, so when I rank it bottom of the list BECAUSE it is so mild you get offended? It's mild, it's weak, it's arguably safer, but it is not a strong engine cleaner. Being that it does have engine cleaning abilities, I put it on my list. If frikkin' WINDEX was known for its engine cleaning abilities it would have been on there.

When it comes to ARX there's so much dam doubletalk and political "the right answer for the right situation" I'd be scared to death to use it had I never heard of it.

My post was NOT to bash ARX but since the pro-ARX crowd has once again rallied to their cause I say again: SEPARATE ARX FORUM.


Coming from an A-Rx customer, repeat customer in fact, every time MMO is mentioned being added to oil people attack it. I wonder how many people who attack it actually tried it and have proof it didn't work or ruined an engine? I would say with the whole thin is in thing, 0W20 oils etc., MMO is probably even safer than it was 20 or 30 years ago. It is also very effective in removing varnish, and freeing sticking valves, lifters, and keeps things clean. I've been happy with it over the years and will continue to buy and use it. I use it in an inverse oiler, add it to gas, and have used it in the engine oil as well. All with satisfactory results.



Frank D
 
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Long Time User Of Competitive Product
Tries Auto-Rx

"My fiancée’s car (1991 Honda Civic DX) began to get a very bad rough idle about 6-8 months ago, so I began to add some Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) in the oil for a few oil changes. At that time the car had 101k miles on it. The idle got a little better after the MMO treatment but it was still nowhere as smooth as it use to be about 3 years ago. The idle was getting so bad that when the A/C kicked on while the car was in gear sitting at a light, the whole car would vibrate/shake. I changed the plugs, wires, distributor cap, PCV valve and checked for vacuum leaks. The car would also burn about 1 quart of regular non-synthetic motor oil every 2,500 - 3k miles.

I heard so much about Auto-Rx (ARX) on Bob is the oil guy and how well it worked. I have worked on cars and built engines for about 15 years. I have always used MMO with great success in the past, and I was very skeptical to try something "new", even though ARX was talked so highly about. I did not think MMO was going to correct the rough idle any better, so I decided to try ARX. Before I began an ARX clean phase, I looked inside the oil filler hole and noticed a lot of varnish on the base of the head and the rocker arms. I also noticed some minor oil deposits on the valve springs. Keep in mind, I had used 1?2 of a quart to1 quart of MMO in the engine for 6k-8k miles already (2 oil changes).There has never been an accumulation of heavy sludge inside the engine.

I am 2,500 miles into the first rinse phase. I recently looked inside the oil filler cap and noticed a lot of the varnish was gone and just about all of the small oil deposits on the valve springs were also gone.

The oil consumption is down to just under ½ a quart with 500 miles to go in this rinse cycle. I believe ARX has cleaned around the ring packs to reduce the oil consumption from 1 quart to ½ quart and the MMO failed to clean the rings. I still have one more clean/rinse cycle to go and I very pleased with the results I have seen thus far. I am going to give up using MMO in my engines and stick with ARX because it has proven to me beyond any doubt to be far superior than MMO. "

Feel free to post this on your site. You have my full permission and I have no problem with that.

It is 2:30am and I just got home from work a little while ago. Once again, thank you for making such a great product of ARX. My father lives in Jacksonville FL and next time I get up there, I am going to begin his 1999 F150 on an ARX clean phase because it is begining to use oil.

Jason
 
Another satisfied A-rx customer, I'm satisfied too. I will probably buy more, I still have 4 bottles. With all that said, since I also have tried both products, MMO works as advertised. BITOG sold me on A-Rx, it steered me away from Mobil 1, but as of now I still like MMO. JMO.............

Cheers

Frank D
 
I keep reading that MMO "works", "works as advertised", or "produced satisfactory results". I have no idea what any of those phrases mean. Could someone post something that they have measured to warrant such incredibly strong statements. I am most curious about what can be known or concluded. I will even accept visual observations. I find it difficult to use feelings (even my own) as evidence of anything.
 
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To accomplish what exactly? MMO is good in the fuel system for sure. But if you were to put both in the crankcase, the MMO won't clean as well as ARX.


If you're looking to clean heavy engine deposits out of your engine, one or two pints of MMO will accomplish this. ARX may accomplish this after several treatments. To say that MMO will not clean your engine as sufficiently as ARX demonstrates that you have never used MMO. Not saying that either one is better, but MMO is definitely stronger and faster working.


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Long Time User Of Competitive Product
Tries Auto-Rx


Another of Frank's cut and paste jobs. No surprise here. Good job, buddy. What's next, another FAQ re-post?
18.gif


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I keep reading that MMO "works", "works as advertised", or "produced satisfactory results". I have no idea what any of those phrases mean.


You're joking right?

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Could someone post something that they have measured to warrant such incredibly strong statements. I am most curious about what can be known or concluded.


Use the search feature.

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I will even accept visual observations. I find it difficult to use feelings (even my own) as evidence of anything.


Here's how it usually works.

I pull off a valve cover and notice sludge and/or varnish. Add a pint or two of MMO and let it run for about 500 to a thousand miles then change the oil. Pull valve covers back off and presto chango sludge and varnish are missing. With very little variance this is a procedure I've done upwards of thirty times and the end result is always the same. If the initial bout of MMO treatment did not clear out everything to my satisfaction I repeat the procedure once more until everything is clear. I've never had to do a third treatment of MMO cleaning nor have I ever had to run "maintenance" doses to get my engine in the shape I want it to be in for the duration of my ownership.

Added to fuel, it stabilizes gas for at least a three month period. Anything longer and I use Stabil. Not saying MMO wouldn't accomplish what Stabil does but I've never tried it, and I know firsthand that Stabil works for at least two years.

As a winterizer: supposedly MMO protects against hard starts if added to the gas tank. I don't have an opinion either way with that.

As a fuel system cleaner: it works. As well as any other Gas treatment out there, FWIW. If you have water in your gas tank, it treats that as well.

As a parts cleaner: Excellent degreaser.

As a lubricant: As good as WD-40.

I use it to clean gasket mating surfaces.

I run it through the air intake to clean out that system. Not as effective as Seafoam or GM Top Engine Cleaner. S

As a combustion chamber soak: VERY EFFECTIVE. Soiled and dirty combustion chambers are spot free after a soak. Very popular in the Saturn community.

I have personally seen MMO free stuck rings and lifters. I can honestly say that two quarts left to sit overnight in my motorcycle broke loose my seized engine.

These are all things I've seen MMO accomplish with my own eyes. Some use it in the transmission like ARX, but personally I wouldn't add an additive to my transmissions if you put a gun to my head.
 
It's a shame to see this thread come to be what it was meant to help end.

As many of you know I have played a role in these battles, and I want no further part of them. This kind of thing needs to end for the good of the site. Fighting does no good for any product or the people involved.

Hats off to c3po. We should try to follow his example: discussing things civilly with data and facts where possible, avoiding making things personal. This makes us all look like a bunch of children. Let's try to be a site worth taking seriously.

Every fight I've seen here (even the ones I've been involved in) could have been avoided in one of two ways:
1) By using objectivity and facts to discuss an issue rather than passion and opinion.
2) By taking a breath and re-reading an offending post, ignoring the inflammatory comment thereby diffusing the situation, or countering it with facts in a neutral, productive manner.

I've been wrong in the past and I'll admit it, but I am here to say that I will do my best to do better in the future.
 
Funny, I wasn't looking for a fight, yet I feel like I have to defend myself for saying something other A-Rx worked for me. Why? MMO worked for me, Kingrob and a host of others. Do I have pictures and proof? No, I wasn't a BIOTG member and never needed to prove to anyone if a product worked or didn't work. We share knowlegde and opinions. I know MMO works, I've seen results. I think I've been pretty civil in the way I conduct myself also.

I stated I use A-Rx (and am happy with it) as well as MMO, is that so bad?

Frank D
 
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.[/quote]

If you're looking to clean heavy engine deposits out of your engine, one or two pints of MMO will accomplish this. ARX may accomplish this after several treatments. To say that MMO will not clean your engine as sufficiently as ARX demonstrates that you have never used MMO. Not saying that either one is better, but MMO is definitely stronger and faster working.

[/quote]

Actually, I have used MMO. I do realize though that I should have said it didn't work as well for me, for that I do apologize. As greenaccord said, this thread was not meant for this. I don't have anything against MMO, matter of fact these posts are making me want to try it again just for the heck of it(used it once on a F100).

Again, I didn't mean to stir the pot, but now I do feel foolish participating.

Merry Christmas!
 
Originally Posted By: kingrob
Not going through this again, but it would take me about six bottles of ARX to accomplish what one bottle of MMO does. That's why I put it at the bottom of MY list.

Also Frank, why is it you talk about ARX's mild cleaning abilities, so when I rank it bottom of the list BECAUSE it is so mild you get offended? It's mild, it's weak, it's arguably safer, but it is not a strong engine cleaner. Being that it does have engine cleaning abilities, I put it on my list. If frikkin' WINDEX was known for its engine cleaning abilities it would have been on there.

When it comes to ARX there's so much dam doubletalk and political "the right answer for the right situation" I'd be scared to death to use it had I never heard of it.

My post was NOT to bash ARX but since the pro-ARX crowd has once again rallied to their cause I say again: SEPARATE ARX FORUM.


I agree. It should be a separate forum.
 
I've used MMO in the crankcase before with some good results. It'll take the sludge out of a small engine in a few hours' runtime and I'm running a pint of it through the wife's Toy for 1K before every 5th or so oil change just to make sure the ol' sludgemonster doesn't get back to it's old ways.

I used to use seafoam when a solvent was called for, but because of results BrianWC has spoken about I'll now use Berryman's. I'll admit they're both super-stout, but apparently B-12 can just about take the chrome off a truck bumper.

And as far as the separate forums go, let's look at it this way: If the above mentioned products truly don't belong with Auto-Rx, then why are they grouped together? It stands to reason that if Auto-Rx is a product that claims to do a different set of things it should be in a forum for those things. If we separate solely based on a desire to quell infighting it wouldn't be correct because there would be a lost potential for real comparative analysis, discussion, and learning to take place. However, if we can agree that Auto-Rx does claim to have a different 'skill set,' so to speak, then we can justify separation logically and have the benefit of reduced toe-stepping as well.
 
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Originally Posted By: kingrob
Not going through this again,


then why bring it up?

Originally Posted By: kingrob
but it would take me about six bottles of ARX to accomplish what one bottle of MMO does. That's why I put it at the bottom of MY list.


I would put it at the bottom for harshness but not effectiveness. But that's just me from my personal experience. A product can be effective without stripping boundary lubrication.

Quote:
Also Frank, why is it you talk about ARX's mild cleaning abilities, so when I rank it bottom of the list BECAUSE it is so mild you get offended? It's mild, it's weak, it's arguably safer, but it is not a strong engine cleaner. Being that it does have engine cleaning abilities, I put it on my list. If frikkin' WINDEX was known for its engine cleaning abilities it would have been on there.


See above. I dunno, I know everyone's experience is different, but as I point out in my experiences using B-12, arx did more. It's a different method of action than solvents who's purpose is to just be run through and dissolve quickly and be done with it.

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When it comes to ARX there's so much dam doubletalk and political "the right answer for the right situation" I'd be scared to death to use it had I never heard of it.


I think it "sounds" like doubletalk when put up against the traditional solvent flush products. But when you wrap your head around the fact that there are products out there that work differently than the traditional "add this to oil to instantly thin out and remove gunk," you see it's not doublespeak. It's a paradigm shift.

Quote:
My post was NOT to bash ARX but since the pro-ARX crowd has once again rallied to their cause I say again: SEPARATE ARX FORUM.


This doesn't make sense. It is an oil additive that is used to clean deposits from your engine. Every thread doesn't HAVE to turn into WWIII. People just choose to take it that way.
 
Its funny how overtime I see less and less people who provide informative information in threads like this.

Auto-RX works, RPS13 verified this, hundreds of individuals with a handful that actually have photographic proof have verified this.

That is all.
 
I was one of the handful who provided photographic info.
21.gif


I dunno. I think w/ flushes there is a fine balance you have to achieve between cleaning ability and maintaining lubricity. Just b/c B-12 didn't perform best for me doesn't mean it hasn't been just the thing for someone else. But based on my experiences with it, I don't recommend it to fellow sludge-year SAAB owners dealing with our particular deposits. The risk doesn't seem worth the return. Arx (in MY experience) seemed to circumvent the whole risk/cleaning issue due to its agressive yet lubricious esters. It certainly seemed the right combo for the guy with the 240sx.

But there's a whole group of products out there that provide some cleaning ability while also providing good lubrication. Even then some are apples to oranges comparisons. Products such as arx, LC20, Lubegard, Neutra-perhaps there could be a ranking of them? I've had experience w/ 3 of the 4 and if you've read my log of my experiences, you know which one worked best for me. But some have reported some results with others. So I don't think you can just be of the frame of mind that a product has to strip 10 inches of crud off in 5 seconds to be really effective in a crankcase environment over an OCI or two.
 
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