I'm new here and I've searched a bit but still need some convincing about sandwich adaptors used for bypass filters. As far as I can tell if I hook up a Motor Guard using a sandwich all the oil (except for the tiny amount going through the bypass filter) leaving the oil pump has to go through that tiny check valve on it's way to the engine. Is that right? I can't believe that would work in the high flow low pressure oil system on my twin turbo Supra. Just thinking about gives me the heebee-geebees. Am I just being paranoid?
sandwich adaptor
- Thread starter Quickbeam
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Correct! Your impression is identical to mine when I first learned that this was used as a bona fide technique for plumbing bypass filters. Not a snowball's chance in July could I figure that the flow could squeeze through that itty-bitty passage.
It does work with most setups. It's rare that it doesn't work. If there's any reduction in flow (only possible with oil pump relief) and the subsequent downstream pressure, then ..rarely..an additional VERY VERY VERY small hole has to be drilled in the casting.
If you've got a high volume oil pump ..you shouldn't have low pressure ...unless you've drilled out the oil gallery and all the other stuff that the NASCAR guys do to allow ultra high volume with (relatively) low pressure for the cooling aspects of it.
If you're no where near your pressure relief limit ..then you will experience no loss of flow or alteration of pressure. Restrictions result in pressure elevations back toward the pump.
It does work with most setups. It's rare that it doesn't work. If there's any reduction in flow (only possible with oil pump relief) and the subsequent downstream pressure, then ..rarely..an additional VERY VERY VERY small hole has to be drilled in the casting.
If you've got a high volume oil pump ..you shouldn't have low pressure ...unless you've drilled out the oil gallery and all the other stuff that the NASCAR guys do to allow ultra high volume with (relatively) low pressure for the cooling aspects of it.
If you're no where near your pressure relief limit ..then you will experience no loss of flow or alteration of pressure. Restrictions result in pressure elevations back toward the pump.
Thanks Gary. So you're saying any restriction posed by the adaptor would cause an upstream pressure increase accompanied by an opening of the relief valve in the pump? Because the oil pump is a gear pump I'm assuming the flow through the adaptor orifice would have to increase in velocity. Correct?
Even so I find it surprising there could be sufficient flow through that adaptor passage. If that's all that's needed why the size and number of inlet holes on a typical oil filter? And why does the adaptor warn against using small lines when installing an oil cooler which, if I'm not mistaken, is the intended use of a sandwich? Or are you going on the "lots of people have done it and nothing blown up" body of evidence?
I dunno. Can I drill a few larger holes in the adaptor and use it as a pressure source while returning the bypass filter somewhere else using a restrictor in it's oultlet?
Even so I find it surprising there could be sufficient flow through that adaptor passage. If that's all that's needed why the size and number of inlet holes on a typical oil filter? And why does the adaptor warn against using small lines when installing an oil cooler which, if I'm not mistaken, is the intended use of a sandwich? Or are you going on the "lots of people have done it and nothing blown up" body of evidence?
I dunno. Can I drill a few larger holes in the adaptor and use it as a pressure source while returning the bypass filter somewhere else using a restrictor in it's oultlet?
If you are going to go through the trouble to do that, why not just pick up from a different source all-together?
Go from your oil pressure sending unit and return to pan/valve cover/oil cap.. where ever!
Go from your oil pressure sending unit and return to pan/valve cover/oil cap.. where ever!
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Well, all except the opening of the relief. This is rare. Surely possible, but rare. Yes, the oil increases in velocity. Positive displacement ..same as a rapids in a river ..same flow ..higher speed. If you open the relief, then you will see reduced flow and pressure downstream.
Yes, it's a bit odd to perceive, but you're moving the oil a very short distance. You'll have additional pressure elevations with the length of the lines and the cooler. Too many elevations and the relief will open ..flow will then be reduced to our traditional "pressure over resistance" models that we see with pump head and garden hoses and whatnot. Keep in mind that the Permacool is typically going to maintain a 2PSID across your cooler. If you use too small a set of lines ..you're going to push more oil through the poppet relief valve ..reducing its effectiveness.quote:
Even so I find it surprising there could be sufficient flow through that adaptor passage. If that's all that's needed why the size and number of inlet holes on a typical oil filter? And why does the adaptor warn against using small lines when installing an oil cooler which, if I'm not mistaken, is the intended use of a sandwich? Or are you going on the "lots of people have done it and nothing blown up" body of evidence?
Yes, you can punch a few holes in the adapter and just tap off either of the ports and be happy.
..but I think that it's totally unnecessary.
You've gotta think in terms of what is the big choke to your oil flow. It's the engine. So think of a 6' aquaduct ..and somewhere along it ..there's a partition with a 1' opening. At the end if the aquaduct is a 3" opening. So, even though the liquid in the 6' portion of the aquaduct accellerates while going through the 1" partition ..it is trumped BIG TIME by the 3" opening at the end of the 6' pipe. You can't, in that scenario .."over load the supply".
If you see what I mean
I understand Gary. Thank you. I've read many of your posts while lurking and you often have a unique way of looking at things. You must be an engineer. You're a pretty funny guy at times too
mdlucky: It'd be tough to install a bypass the conventional way as things are very difficult to get at on this engine. I may hold off until I do some maintenance and do it "right" though. I'm going to try the sandwich until then.
mdlucky: It'd be tough to install a bypass the conventional way as things are very difficult to get at on this engine. I may hold off until I do some maintenance and do it "right" though. I'm going to try the sandwich until then.
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No
I'm just a dummy that can't stand to not know a few things that bug the heck out of me (eyes gotz two nose) ..making lots of mistakes along the way. I've also got a few pals that help me over the big humps.
Gary I recently purchased the perma cool 181 adapter and still from reading this post cant figure out how the heck it operates. It appears to me that all the oil coming from the oil pump has two options. It can go the route of going straight to the outlet on the adapter. Or if the outlet is restricted then it goes through the poppet valve? If I'm looking at it right then then most of the flow must go threw the poppet valve to then go threw the full flow filter. I't just seems that the flow to the engine will be choked down from having to flow threw the seemingly small valve. I can see how the valve keeps preassure on the oil to go to the motor guard, but isn't it easier for the oil to flow through the valve then go through the MG.
If I'm mistaken I would greatly appreciate your help. My setup is on a 1991 F-250 with the 460. I will be using 3/8" lines.
If I'm mistaken I would greatly appreciate your help. My setup is on a 1991 F-250 with the 460. I will be using 3/8" lines.
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Well, you're correct. The oil will see an easier path through the relief valve then through a solid mass of the tp filter. The majority of the flow will take the short cut.
What will occur is that there will always be a 2PSID differential created by the relief valve "compelling" the flow to pass through the MG. That flow will vary from next to nothing to whatever it can be based on viscosity and the saturation level of the tp element.
2PSID @ 150CST=very little
2PSID @ 13CST=a lot more then nothing.
The balance, whatever that may be at the moment, goes through the relief valve.
What will occur is that there will always be a 2PSID differential created by the relief valve "compelling" the flow to pass through the MG. That flow will vary from next to nothing to whatever it can be based on viscosity and the saturation level of the tp element.
2PSID @ 150CST=very little
2PSID @ 13CST=a lot more then nothing.
The balance, whatever that may be at the moment, goes through the relief valve.
I have been running the permacool sandwich adapter on my engine for 150,000 miles now...with the bypass filter...still running strong ...heck just took a 1500 miles vaction in the car . runs like a clock with overe 220,000 miles...I am sure if the adapter affected thing my engine would have bit the farm a long time ago
I would like to add a BP filter to one or more of my cars and have been considering the sandwich adapter approach because of the easy plumbing, but am concerned about the low pressure differential driving the oil through the BP filter. I have not looked at a sandwich adapter yet (only seen the pictures on line), but the only way I can figure out that they would work is that when the oil goes through the check valve (on its way to the full flow filter) that produces a 2 PSI pressure drop across that valve, creating a pressure differential between the oil pan side of the sandwich and the full flow filter side of the sandwich.
2 PSI (equivalent to a column of oil about 4 feet high) seems like plenty to drive flow through a cooling unit with 3/8 to 1/2 inch open pipes (the original purpose of the sandwich adapter), but seems low to drive oil through a dense BP filter. My suspicion is that it works, but with very very slow flow, and that flow through the BP filter would effectively stop well before it would stop with a higher pressure drop, like you would get if the return were plumbed to a low pressure zone like the oil pan or oil filler cap. If I am right, the effective life of the BP filter will be much shorter with the sandwich adapter plumbing than with other approaches. The 2 PSI pressure drop driving the flow will be maintained, but as the BP filter loads up, the flow rate through the BP filter will slow to a crawl.
I don't see that the sandwich adapter would do any significant harm to flow through the full flow filter, but all things considered, I am now thinking that if I am going to go to the bother of installing a BP filter I should do the extra work to plumb it with the larger pressure drop across the BP filter. Any thoughts?
2 PSI (equivalent to a column of oil about 4 feet high) seems like plenty to drive flow through a cooling unit with 3/8 to 1/2 inch open pipes (the original purpose of the sandwich adapter), but seems low to drive oil through a dense BP filter. My suspicion is that it works, but with very very slow flow, and that flow through the BP filter would effectively stop well before it would stop with a higher pressure drop, like you would get if the return were plumbed to a low pressure zone like the oil pan or oil filler cap. If I am right, the effective life of the BP filter will be much shorter with the sandwich adapter plumbing than with other approaches. The 2 PSI pressure drop driving the flow will be maintained, but as the BP filter loads up, the flow rate through the BP filter will slow to a crawl.
I don't see that the sandwich adapter would do any significant harm to flow through the full flow filter, but all things considered, I am now thinking that if I am going to go to the bother of installing a BP filter I should do the extra work to plumb it with the larger pressure drop across the BP filter. Any thoughts?
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When you install a true bypass filter that returns to a zero pressure environment, you have a restrictive orifice to deal with ..so that may alter your preception of unencumbered flow through the bypass filter. When installing with a sandwich adapter, it's typically dispenced with. If you buy a BP-80-A Amsoil mount ..it has a .030" restrictor built into the outlet. Hence the pressure drop is not an indicator of flow.
Any pressure differential will produce flow. The rate will vary depending on a few factors. That 2psid is 2psid with 150CST fluid and 2psid with 10CST fluid. The rate will be radically different in those two states.
One advantage of the sandwich installation is that no flow is detoured around the engine. Not that it has proven to be a problem.
But, by all means, plumb it as you choose. There are (probably) thousands of installations of either persuasion.
[ September 06, 2006, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Any pressure differential will produce flow. The rate will vary depending on a few factors. That 2psid is 2psid with 150CST fluid and 2psid with 10CST fluid. The rate will be radically different in those two states.
One advantage of the sandwich installation is that no flow is detoured around the engine. Not that it has proven to be a problem.
But, by all means, plumb it as you choose. There are (probably) thousands of installations of either persuasion.
[ September 06, 2006, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Gary it was mentioned in a previous post that the best thing to do when installing a sandwhich adapter is to install a PSI gauge on the outlet of the adapter to get a reading. I will be installing a tee on the outlet of mine. I will connect a barbed fitting and a 3/8 to 1/8 bushing to hook up the oil gauge. Now The engine is a 91 460 with around 114,000 miles. The service book says the engine should have between 40 and 60psi @ 2000RPM. So When I get everything hooked up What should my preasure be. I know I might have to drill the adapter and thats why I will be installing the gauge just to be sure.
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Your pressure should be 40-60psi @ 2000 rpms.
Have you verified your pressure as it stands now? You've had a dummie needle, IIRC. Before you do the sandwich ..just, if practical, tap into the sender port and see what it reads (or did you say that the sender port is a real PAIN to get to
). Then you'll know if you're within spec before seeing what, if any, effect the sandwich has. The reason that I suggest the presandwich evaluation is that with whatever oil that you are using now ..in this engine, may produce oil pump relief action anyway. It may give you the flase impression that the sandwich is the issue. If you prematurely drill it ..you may find out that it won't work when the oil is warm.
If you happen to have two gauges ...plumb one to each port. If you see much more then 2psid ..then you're getting reduced flow. The broader the spread ..the more flow you're losing. If you have no loss of downstream pressure ..you have no loss of flow.
In your final analysis of this, if you do find that you need to drill the sandwich, make sure you use the absolute smallest drill bit that you can find. If you find you need to do more drilling ..just drill another hole. Don't go to a bigger drill bit.
Have you verified your pressure as it stands now? You've had a dummie needle, IIRC. Before you do the sandwich ..just, if practical, tap into the sender port and see what it reads (or did you say that the sender port is a real PAIN to get to
If you happen to have two gauges ...plumb one to each port. If you see much more then 2psid ..then you're getting reduced flow. The broader the spread ..the more flow you're losing. If you have no loss of downstream pressure ..you have no loss of flow.
In your final analysis of this, if you do find that you need to drill the sandwich, make sure you use the absolute smallest drill bit that you can find. If you find you need to do more drilling ..just drill another hole. Don't go to a bigger drill bit.
Thanks for the feedback. If I were to use spin on type BP filters, then it seems as though a good combination might be to use a sandwich adapter and a regular remote filter mount (assuming the BP filters will fit), rather than something like the Amsoil BP-80-A unit, so I am not double dipping on the small orifice pressure drops.
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You merely drill out the orifice ..or remove it all together
What make of spin-on bypass filters are you considering?
Amsoil bypass filter use the Cummins 1-16 thread. There is one mount (not dual) that some member found through his parts supplier ($90
) and there are adapters available to allow the use of a Permacool unit (it adapts a 3/4-16 thread to a 1-16 thread) on ebay (about $20+each).
There are, among a number of offerings, several bypass filters that use the 5/8-20 thread, IIRC.
If I had the room (which I do) I would think my ideal setup would be a BK-12 Dual Guard to a Permacool sandwich. You can then run two bypass filters in parallel. At operating temp, you may be able to achieve 100% flow through them ..which would be exceptional filtration.
Dave, you should run the numbers, costwise, on this with whatever combo you choose to work with. I've done a decent amount of research into doing this ..and there are certain immutable roadblocks and "givens" in the whole scheme of things. You can get cheap spin-on bypass filters (relatively speaking) ..but they aren't truly very fine. A decent step above commone full flow filters ..but not anywhere near the level of Amsoil's bypass filters. They would need to be serviced more often and, although relatively cheap, add up to about as much with less effectiveness. You can get hydraulic filters that are finer then bypass filters ..but they cost too much and don't have enough holding capacity.
TP filters are very good and cheap. The only liability is the service interval. They cannot, imo, be beat pricewise for the level of filtration.
There will always be some "size vs. level of efficiency vs. longevity" triangle that you cannot escape.
Pardon me
..my manners
What make of spin-on bypass filters are you considering?
Amsoil bypass filter use the Cummins 1-16 thread. There is one mount (not dual) that some member found through his parts supplier ($90
There are, among a number of offerings, several bypass filters that use the 5/8-20 thread, IIRC.
If I had the room (which I do) I would think my ideal setup would be a BK-12 Dual Guard to a Permacool sandwich. You can then run two bypass filters in parallel. At operating temp, you may be able to achieve 100% flow through them ..which would be exceptional filtration.
Dave, you should run the numbers, costwise, on this with whatever combo you choose to work with. I've done a decent amount of research into doing this ..and there are certain immutable roadblocks and "givens" in the whole scheme of things. You can get cheap spin-on bypass filters (relatively speaking) ..but they aren't truly very fine. A decent step above commone full flow filters ..but not anywhere near the level of Amsoil's bypass filters. They would need to be serviced more often and, although relatively cheap, add up to about as much with less effectiveness. You can get hydraulic filters that are finer then bypass filters ..but they cost too much and don't have enough holding capacity.
TP filters are very good and cheap. The only liability is the service interval. They cannot, imo, be beat pricewise for the level of filtration.
There will always be some "size vs. level of efficiency vs. longevity" triangle that you cannot escape.
Pardon me
Fwiw I've completed my installation. I saw a 8 psi reduction in oil pressure. It took a .173" hole through the adaptor wall to restore it. The MG takes 15 minutes to heat up but I'm satisfied.
This was a air filter type M30 that I converted to oil. There was no restrictor in it but I've machined an orifice for when I plumb it to a zero pressure return. The other option was to drill a bypass hole internal to the MG in the raised area at the inlet so I could install it in series with my oil cooler. In the end I decided against doing that and just went with the sandwich setup for now.
This was a air filter type M30 that I converted to oil. There was no restrictor in it but I've machined an orifice for when I plumb it to a zero pressure return. The other option was to drill a bypass hole internal to the MG in the raised area at the inlet so I could install it in series with my oil cooler. In the end I decided against doing that and just went with the sandwich setup for now.
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Good work, QB.
I did not have a particular spin on filter in mind when I made the last post, but in doing a little reseach, it looks like one possibility is a Baldwin OB1305 mount ($25) and either a B50 or BT341 filter ($6). I suspect I would not get the same quality filtration with this setup as with Amsoil products, but it would still be a big upgrade from my tiny ff filter only, and if I used the shorter BT341 filter (4 3/8 inches long), it would fit better in my space than the Amsoil unit. I would like to see some test results for the Baldwin filter, but have not found any yet.
Does anyone have any experience with these Baldwin products? Are there any other spin on alternatives (besides Amsoil) worth considering?
Does anyone have any experience with these Baldwin products? Are there any other spin on alternatives (besides Amsoil) worth considering?
Talked with Hasting Filter in Kearney Nebraska just a few minutes ago. I actually talked with someone in their engineering dept. They have the B50..same as Baldwin B50, that has a micron rating of 3µ nominal, and 7µ absolute. I really believe that in those ranges the material that is under that poses little threat to engine degradation. Remember, bacteria is 2µ in size, and red blood cells are 8µ in size just to give a real idea of micron size.
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