Sand and engine damage

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I’d like someone to explain contamination of oil due to sand.

After doing a little reading, I’m a bit confused. On the one hand, an article like this (http://www.ennyman.com/syn-dirt.html) makes it look like the danger from sand is from an individual particle of sand, that will cause damage to all the parts of an engine that it touches, until it is either caught up in the oil filter, or perhaps (not sure if this happens) is pulverized by the moving parts of the engine. If this is how sand can damage an engine—one particle at a time—it seems rather silly to change the oil at 4000 or 5000 miles, to eliminate sand, as that would be like locking the barn door after the horse has escaped. If small particles of sand are going to cycle through the engine a few times, or hundreds of times, I’m not sure that changing the oil--after the particle of sand has already cycled through the engine dozens if not hundreds of times--will do much to prevent engine damage and wear.

On the other hand, articles like this one http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/830/silica-contamination--see esp. Figure 2--make it look like you can safely accumulate sand in small amounts, but once it reaches 20-25 ppm, then engine wear takes off. This makes it look like it is more the combination of lots of sand that hurts your engine, rather just than one particle in particular. And if this is the case, then changing your oil early, before the silicon gets to 20-25 ppm, makes a lot of sense to me.

Which of these is the case? Or is there some other factor I’m not considering?
 
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How is sand supposed to get into the oil?

I live in Phoenix where we constantly get dust storms, and we all drive in them. My UOAs always come back great.

 
That looks like something from a movie.

What type of air filter do you use?
 
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Originally Posted By: paulri
That looks like something from a movie.

What type of air filter do you use?


It happens at LEAST once a week in the summer. Sometimes 3 days in a row. I used MANN air filters in my 2000 Camry and previous 2004 VW Beetle TDI.

Here's some of my UOAs. First one is my 2000 Camry. 2nd one was my previous 2004 VW Beetle TDI.

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Good cellulose oem type air filters are pretty good at filtering fine silicon, especially after the break in period where the larger pores clog forcing air through smaller pores
 
It gets in through K&N cloth air filters, especially ones that aren't oiled properly. A good OEM or aftermarket filter will trap most of the contaminates.
 
You could always make a prefilter by wedging some centers off a buffing pad in the intake resonator or pantyhose if you got a cone filter.Someone once told me your filters collect most dust and dirt when they are sitting still.Those KN filters arent my first choice but I think they do better dirty and only work better clean at a drag strip imho.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
How is sand supposed to get into the oil?


Your engine is literally an air pump. That's why the air filter is the most important filter. Grit in the air is sucked in and is responsible for most of the wear metals found in engine oil.
 
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
How is sand supposed to get into the oil?


Your engine is literally an air pump. That's why the air filter is the most important filter. Grit in the air is sucked in and is responsible for most of the wear metals found in engine oil.
Maybe for cars without air filters.
 
OP,

I don't think that chart in the linked article indicates a total silicon concentration of 20 to 25 ppm is "safe" - it was just the baseline for that set of test data.

Keep in mind many (most?) antifoam additives used in a fully formulated motor oil are silicone based and therefore contain some (varying) amounts of silicon. But there's no way for a simple elemental analysis to tell you how much of the silicon present is from silicon dioxide or some other source.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
How is sand supposed to get into the oil?


Your engine is literally an air pump. That's why the air filter is the most important filter. Grit in the air is sucked in and is responsible for most of the wear metals found in engine oil.
Maybe for cars without air filters.


THAT'S WHY I SAID THE AIR FILTER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT
 
All of my trucks live in an eternal dust storm, thanks to my dirt yard and road. A combination of Donaldson, Purolator, and AEM filters has kept the Si figures very very low.

Probably nowhere near as bad as the haboobs of the American Southwest.
 
Hey Nick, Is the photo you posted Phoenix or a generic dust storm picture?

I can imagine houses with "retrofitted" automotive air filters (bought at junkyards) fitted to each window--the outside of the window for a classy look, of course. Kira
 
Originally Posted By: Kira
Hey Nick, Is the photo you posted Phoenix or a generic dust storm picture?

I can imagine houses with "retrofitted" automotive air filters (bought at junkyards) fitted to each window--the outside of the window for a classy look, of course. Kira


It was the first result in a Google Image search for "dust storm phoenix, arizona" so I'm betting it was local.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
How is sand supposed to get into the oil?


Your engine is literally an air pump. That's why the air filter is the most important filter. Grit in the air is sucked in and is responsible for most of the wear metals found in engine oil.



lots of premium oil filters----but why is there not a premium air filter, like a fram ultra AIR filter??
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
All of my trucks live in an eternal dust storm, thanks to my dirt yard and road. A combination of Donaldson, Purolator, and AEM filters has kept the Si figures very very low.

Probably nowhere near as bad as the haboobs of the American Southwest.
You take care of yourself and family DoubleWasp. Looks like your area will be hard hit by approaching hurricane. Let us know how things turn out for you. Take care sir, I wish you and other members in the path of this storm didn't have to go through this, but the nation is behind you. Regards and best wishes to all my countrymen in the face of the approaching menace. From sea to shining sea.
 
Originally Posted By: paulri
I’d like someone to explain contamination of oil due to sand.

After doing a little reading, I’m a bit confused. On the one hand, an article like this (http://www.ennyman.com/syn-dirt.html) makes it look like the danger from sand is from an individual particle of sand, that will cause damage to all the parts of an engine that it touches, until it is either caught up in the oil filter, or perhaps (not sure if this happens) is pulverized by the moving parts of the engine. If this is how sand can damage an engine—one particle at a time—it seems rather silly to change the oil at 4000 or 5000 miles, to eliminate sand, as that would be like locking the barn door after the horse has escaped. If small particles of sand are going to cycle through the engine a few times, or hundreds of times, I’m not sure that changing the oil--after the particle of sand has already cycled through the engine dozens if not hundreds of times--will do much to prevent engine damage and wear.

On the other hand, articles like this one http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/830/silica-contamination--see esp. Figure 2--make it look like you can safely accumulate sand in small amounts, but once it reaches 20-25 ppm, then engine wear takes off. This makes it look like it is more the combination of lots of sand that hurts your engine, rather just than one particle in particular. And if this is the case, then changing your oil early, before the silicon gets to 20-25 ppm, makes a lot of sense to me.

Which of these is the case? Or is there some other factor I’m not considering?


Neither of your interpretations seem to make any sense.

IF accumulated silica particles in the oil are causing damage, changing the oil gets rid of most of them, (perhaps about 80%) so it reduces the ongoing damage. OF COURSE it doesn't reverse the damage that's already happened. Nothing short of a rebuild does that.

How and why would 20-25 ppm of silicon be a magic cutoff below which no damage occurred? If silica is damaging, then assuming the particle size is constant, damage will be proportional to the amount in circulation. There's no obvious reason to expect a cutoff.

There is reason to believe there might be a cutoff in particle size relative to, say bearing clearances, below which wear is much reduced, but thats a different thing, and controversial anyway.
 
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