SAAB oil sludge problem

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Messages
2,513
Location
WA
This was posted on my SAAB forum.

Click here

So does this sound like oil sludge? SAABUSA has been only using semi-synthetic 5W-30 in these cars during their free maintenance period. I would assume they used the same oil in Europe also.
 
It sounds like they are probably suffering from an accumulation of moisture or perhaps fuel dilution when opperated for very short trips in very cold climates. Maybe the PCV systems didn't circulate enough or maybe the fuel system was running too rich in open loop conditions. I wonder what changed post 2002 to "fix" the problem.

As much as we make fun of the old 3 month or 3,000 mile rule around here, it is a rule which tends to almost entirely eliminate damage from those kinds of conditions. Changing the oil every three months religiously really minizes the chances of damage due to moisture or fuel dilution accumulation under severe winter, short trip conditions. To the first order these are not the kinds of problems which are primarily influenced by the quality of the motor oil used as long as minimum standards are met.

It would be interesting to know more technical details, but I doubt Saab will publish them!

John
 
The article says that pre-2002 models are affected, but the 2002 SAAB 9-3 and 9-5 (and the 2003 9-5) got semi-synth 5W-30, with a recommended interval of 10,000 (!) miles.

The new-gen ('03+) 9-3SS got fully synthetic 0W-30 from the get-go and the 9-5 didn't get this oil until 2004.
 
I'm pretty sure the "standard" oil for Saab is now Mobil 1 0W-40, as the factory fill and "free" maintenance stuff. That's what my '03 9-5 had.

jeff
 
It is a PCV design problem, although using cheap oil can exacerbate the situation.

This has been a problem known by Saab enthusaists for the past several years. It is only no being acknowledged by Saab itself after seeing significant problems in the cars in Sweden.

BTW, it is estimated that this problem affects over 400K cars. Doesn't sound like a big deal if you're the size of Ford, but Saab produces a little more that 100K cars a year at its plant in Trollhotten.

This link explains the problem with the PCV system in the Saab's with Trionic (aka T-7 system) cars:

http://www.mitt-eget.com/saab/information_ccv_en.shtml
 
I have a 2001 9-5 ith an eye on this problem and my wife's driving habits with the car - mostly in town, many short trips, etc. I've decided on an every 4 month schedule: Feb, June, Oct with Mobil 1 0w-40 to combat any sludge. I suspect I can get away with 6 month intervals in say Oct and April, but will do a few UOA before trying that. I plan on keeping that car for 300+k miles
smile.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by bfg9k:
I have a 2001 9-5 ith an eye on this problem and my wife's driving habits with the car - mostly in town, many short trips, etc. I've decided on an every 4 month schedule: Feb, June, Oct with Mobil 1 0w-40 to combat any sludge. I suspect I can get away with 6 month intervals in say Oct and April, but will do a few UOA before trying that. I plan on keeping that car for 300+k miles
smile.gif


Yes, if you're using M1 0W-40 then 6 mo OCIs would be very conservative. This oil is dual rated for both gasoline & diesel engines, the way Saab's Euro-spec oils have always been (but US-spec oils recently have not been). This oil (or M1 5W-40, or M1 15W-50) has an extra-robust formulation to handle insanely extended drain intervals & huge amounts of oil oxidation, nitration & acid buildup. 6 mo OCIs with this oil would make sludge concerns a non-issue. I believe Amsoil's 5W-40, 15W-40 & 20W-50 are also formulated this way.
 
quote:

Yes, if you're using M1 0W-40 then 6 mo OCIs would be very conservative. This oil is dual rated for both gasoline & diesel engines, the way Saab's Euro-spec oils have always been (but US-spec oils recently have not been). This oil (or M1 5W-40, or M1 15W-50) has an extra-robust formulation to handle insanely extended drain intervals & huge amounts of oil oxidation, nitration & acid buildup. 6 mo OCIs with this oil would make sludge concerns a non-issue. I believe Amsoil's 5W-40, 15W-40 & 20W-50 are also formulated this way.

Thanks for the reply! That's exactly what I was hoping to hear about my plan
grin.gif
I'll probably also give the Amsoil AFL 5w40 a try as well once I've used up my case of the Mobil 1. Saab is supposed to have yet another PCV mod out in a few months, and if that one is well-received in a year or so I'll probably get it done to my unmodified engine.
 
More from that Police Fleet link:

"The ISP ended up losing about 40 engines to oil starvation, just due to low oil levels....Dennis Tucker, Fleet Operations Manager for the ISP, reflected that the synthetic oil itself was a good product. The neglect and the extended oil changes caused most of the problems."

"Texas DPS is now allowing districts to use synthetic oil and an extended drain cycle, however, the oil must be analyzed periodically to determine the optimum drain schedule."

"The New York City Police Department prefers to do a preventative maintenance every 3000–4000-miles, however, getting the vehicle in for service in a timely manner is a problem, and commanders, under prodding from NYC Fleet Services, sometimes must order an officer to bring the vehicle in for service." The local sheriff's fleet manager "repossesed" a cruiser from in front of the deputies house one day just to do the maintenance. They notified dispatch and got the OK, but didn't tell the deputy.

"The LAPD currently uses 15W-40 weight re-refined oil with good results. Formerly it changed oil at 3,000-miles; currently LAPD feels that 4,000-mile intervals between changes are satisfactory."

"the CHP runs Unocal 10W-30 re-refined oil in its cruisers, which is changed at 5000 mile intervals. The CHP has had good service utilizing re-refined oil and the oil drain schedule was determined by chemical analysis of used oil under the CHP’s worst-possible operating conditions."

"Chicago Police Department follows Ford’s recommendation of changing oil at 3,000-mile intervals and utilizes 5W-20 oil."

So...no clear concensus. L.A. uses 15W-40 and Chicago uses 5W-20, and Chicago might have hotter summers. Chicago uses new oil and many agencies use rerefined oil. If the rerefined oil has be re-hydroprocessed it can be OK. If it is just filtered and re-additized, I don't want any. The hydroprocessing is necessary to remove the oxidized products.

I've had good analyses with Schaeffer syn blend 10W-30 @ 12,000 miles. The analysis tells the real story. Oil drain intervals can be safely extended, but not blindly.


Ken
 
With 40 engines lost due to neglect, that leaves 80 not lost to neglect. More than a couple of boat and aircraft sites suggest using dino with regular change intervals instead of synthetic, as they see fewer problems. With aircraft I'll guess it's related to the lead problem that Mobil 1 initially had, and I'll guess that a lot of other problems are related to extended change intervals. Amsoil and Mobil both seemed to have backed off from advertising long chnage intervals.

There seems to be a lot of risk with minimal relative benefit from long oil change intervals. If the condition of your oil is a hobby and you know what it is by whatever means then long change intervals are part of the fun of the hobby. Otherwise it seems kind of foolhardy.
 
bfg9k, (man, does that name bring back memories!)
Our '99 9³ gets the same type of driving as your Saab. My 9k mi 0W-40 UOA was decent (for a Saab) but not stellar, so I'm currently running 5W-40. I'm sending in the 5k mi "1/2 way thru" sample this weekend.

1sttruck,
I see several common mis-statements in that article. Combined with the fact that the problems were attributed to neglect ("10,000 miles between changes" doesn't mean "10,000 miles between checking"), I don't see any reason to run short OCIs using premium full syn.
 
quote:

There seems to be a lot of risk with minimal relative benefit from long oil change intervals. If the condition of your oil is a hobby and you know what it is by whatever means then long change intervals are part of the fun of the hobby. Otherwise it seems kind of foolhardy.

If we don't believe in extended drains ..or at least the viability of them, we sure are wasting a grand amount of time developing better oils for ...what??
confused.gif
The state of the art is light years ahead of when the 3k/3m OCI was conceived (and somehow got into some "firmware" or hard wired) and that served very well at that time. If extended drains are foolhardy ...I would counter that 3k/3m OCI are as foolishly wasteful.

quote:

I don't see any reason to run short OCIs using premium full syn.

I could only see this being reasonable for northern users in severe climates. If I saw -30 ..I'd be using a synth (I'd be using it anyway) and probably beat it up enough to swap it out fairly regularly ..at least over that harsh season.
 
Is Saab joing the ranks of other sludgemobile makes like Mercedes, Toyota, VW, Audi, and Chrysler, or is it a more general problem of marketing overriding engineering when makers specify long oil chnage intervals ? Oil sludge is something that use to be common, in fact expected in the older VWs, a vehicle that I use to work on part time for extra cash. It had a small sump, high operating temperatures, and no oil filter to speak of. I added a larger oil cooler and a full flow oil filter, which also increased the oil capacity significantly, did 3k oil changes, and the ex (who ended up with the car) said that every mechanic was amazed at how clean it was. The last time I talked to her it had almost 140k miles and was running like new.

Now days people seem to expect long oil change intervals, whether it's warranted or not, and we've seen literally millions of vehicles end up with oil sludge problems, some severe enough to produce engine failure at 60k or less miles. Spec'ing dino 5W-30 for 7500 mile oil changes (people typically don't read the fine print about severe duty use) seems like a recipe for potential problems, and the results indicate that it is. Synthetic isn't going to solve all of the problems, as with some usage the oil needs to be changed because of soot, high silicon from dust and such, water, etc., things that filters don't often remove. One of our cars is on a low use schedule as we try to avoid having two or more vehicles wear out at the same time and require replacement, so it probably sees 5k to 6k miles a year. With a '15k' mile oil should I replace it once every three years ? I think that regardless of what I put in it a six month change is reasonable, considering the potential for condensation here in the Pacific NW and the low usage. With my diesel truck soot is driver for the OEM oil change interval, something that a synthetic won't solve.

In summary, as I noted previously, if you don't KNOW the condition of your oil and you hope to keep the vehicle for awhile, long oil change intervals are a gamble, one with little benefit considering the cost of oil.


http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=8794&page_number=1

Other diligent owners changed their oil, but as it turned out, not often enough. Like most owner manuals, Toyota's specified oil changes at 7500 miles. But its manuals also specified 3750-mile changes for cars in "severe" service. "Severe" service applies to vehicles used on short trips, especially in winter, situations where the engine never warms up. It also involves towing and stop-and-go driving in heavy traffic, especially in hot climates, which elevates oil temperature. These are exactly the conditions that promote sludge formation.

So how is an owner to determine the threshold between "normal" and "severe" service? Toyota concluded that an owner couldn't be expected to know and has since revised its oil-change schedules for all its vehicles to 5000 miles.
 
Wayne

I know I know. I hear you. It is a major inconvenience to depend on others to change the oil. Especially in my case where I am trying to clean out my engine with Auto-RX and a series of very short OCIs.

I think her original warranty has expired so I would rather do her oil changes now. My car is old. No typical shop stocks the filters. The dealer would probably charge $90 CDN for an oil change. I know 2 really good mechanics who will do it for not much more than my retail cost for materials, but neither of them are close.

My problem (apart from overall clumsiness) is that living in the city I have no room. I don't have a driveway and my garage (rear lane access) is about 2 feet longer than our cars, and barely wide enough to get in and out. It is also on a slight incline. It is impossible and/or unsafe to get ramps or jacks into the picture and both our cars have about 4 inches ground clearance.

I wish I could find a craft shop where I could rent a bay to do my own changes. A friend who lives in the country has a lift but he is more than 50 miles away (and I don't like to impose).

And some of this is theoretical. Even if I did have the space, I don't think I would DIY in the Winter. It is 20F today and that is warm for this time of year here. Normally -10F is routine.

If I moved to the suburbs I could afford an enormous heated garage. But then I would have to live in the suburbs.
frown.gif


quote:

Originally posted by wavinwayne:

quote:

Originally posted by peterr:
I insist that my GF change the oil every 5 or 6 months....

You don't change the oil for her?
nono.gif
Shame, Shame.

I say this in a totally light-hearted way.
wink.gif


 
I think this is key. People either do not understand or have exactly the wrong idea about the term severe duty.

My car is a Porsche that gets about 65% Highway/ 35% City driving. Average trip distance probably 15-20 miles. My girlfriend drives an Acura with an average trip of maybe 2 miles, almost all city short trips. She puts about 4000-5000 miles a year on the car.

I think many non oil obsessed people would never understand that a Porsche at 90 Miles per hour is the usage that God intended and a Honda driven infrequently in city stop and go, never getting to operating temperature is "severe duty". And these are exactly the people who need the help.

I insist that my GF change the oil every 5 or 6 months if for no other reason than it is probably sooty and watery from the short trips. If she left it for the recommended interval (I think her car is 12000 Km or 7500 miles) that could be over 18 months.


quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Spec'ing dino 5W-30 for 7500 mile oil changes (people typically don't read the fine print about severe duty use) seems like a recipe for potential problems, and the results indicate that it is.

Like most owner manuals, Toyota's specified oil changes at 7500 miles. But its manuals also specified 3750-mile changes for cars in "severe" service. "Severe" service applies to vehicles used on short trips, especially in winter, situations where the engine never warms up. It also involves towing and stop-and-go driving in heavy traffic, especially in hot climates, which elevates oil temperature. These are exactly the conditions that promote sludge formation.

So how is an owner to determine the threshold between "normal" and "severe" service? Toyota concluded that an owner couldn't be expected to know and has since revised its oil-change schedules for all its vehicles to 5000 miles.


 
Eiron,
quote:

Our '99 9³ gets the same type of driving as your Saab. My 9k mi 0W-40 UOA was decent (for a Saab) but not stellar, so I'm currently running 5W-40. I'm sending in the 5k mi "1/2 way thru" sample this weekend.

The other oil I was eyeing is the Amsoil 5w-40, which seems to be getting rave reviews here on BITOG. I went with the 0w-40 since I could get it locally without any trouble, and I was feeling too cheap to do mail order for the Amsoil
wink.gif
I'll probably try the 5w-40 later this year, just to see if the engine runs any differently. The Mobil 1 is very popular over on Saabnet.

And yes, the bfg9k name is a play on my initials and on the old Doom game which sucked away many hours of my college days
grin.gif
 
Gary,
I ran the same batch of M1 15W-50 in my non-turbo Saab for two Northern Colorado winters & it looked pretty good. (I continued to use that same oil for another 4,500 miles of Auto-Rx cleaning.) Now I'm running 20k mile intervals in the same climate on both M1 0W-40 (my car) & M1 5W-40 (son's car).

1sttruck,
Actually, I think it's an accounting vs engineering issue. When GM introduced the latest Saab 9³ Sport Sedan, it came with a turbo version their new Ecotec engine. This engine holds 50% more oil than the models covered under the extended warranty, & the manual mandates fully synthetic oil meeting GM's mystery eco-spec GM-LL-A-025. At the same time, they sent an oil TSB stating that dealers would not be reimbursed for using the better oil in any other models still covered under warranty. I wonder if they saved enough money by using semi syn to pay for all the replacement engines...

bfg9k,
I'm running M1 5W-40 (T&SUV) 'cuz it's readily available around here. If it never got below 20°F I'd only run M1 15W-50 'cuz it maintains a better oil film to protect the turbo & has a fantastic additive package. For our climates, I think 5W-40 (either M1 or Amsoil) is the next best year-round choice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top