Running 5W-50 in Ford engines instead of 5W-20 / 5W-30?

YogiTheCat said:
You're absolutely right and spot-on, however, the life of the turbo is shortened. Also, if everyone was towing heavy loads on ILSAC 5W-30 oil with their EcoBoost powered F150s, those failures would be more prevalent....
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And your evidence for this is?
 
Jackson_Slugger said:
And your evidence for this is?
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Add the fact that the turbo bearing housing is water jacketed with a "turbo timer" and separate coolant circuit .on most cars so the lubricant heating in the unit is through shear and then impeller shaft heat transfer from the ex side turbine. Given good flow, coking should not be an issue anymore.
 
metroplex said:
The Ford GT (supercar) and a few of Ford's other performance vehicles are specified to use 5W-50 synthetic (The GT is specified to use Castrol Edge Supercar 5W-50 specifically in the owner's manual, but it meets a Ford specification). That got me thinking, so I looked up the VVT solenoids from the GT and they are common with Ford's other engines (2.3L, 3.5L, 5.0L, etc...) It seems to me that mechanically speaking, the 5W-50 synthetic would run in the majority of Ford's engine lineup. I remember Ford Australia's modular V8s (which were made in the US) being specified to use a 5W-50 synthetic while the same engines in the US were spec'd to use 5W-20.

The reason for me asking is that it looks like the internal water pump on the Duratec V6s (3.5/3.7) have a non-sealed bearing that relies on engine oil to lubricate the needle/ball bearings. Someone used a water jet to cut apart the failed water pumps and saw flat spots on these bearings. I'm thinking the bearings probably failed due to a lube issue, causing the shaft to overheat and destroy the shaft seal, causing the coolant to flow into the engine oil. Since the majority of these engines are running 5W-20 or 5W-30 as well as in police fleets with 50k water pump changes, maybe those oils aren't providing enough protection? There are lots of reports of timing chain "stretch" (basically wear) on these engines as well. I have a friend whose Explorer Sport (3.5L EcoBoost) with under 50k miles had to have the timing chains replaced due to "stretch".
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In the two F150s I owned with the 5.0, I ran 5w-30 and 0w-40. Both without issue and neither had noticeable power or mpg difference from the 5w-20. Very smooth on the -40.

I'd say bumping up the viscosity is a good idea since the 20 grade is for CAFE.

(Nice resurrection snagglefoot) 😃
 
tcp71 said:
Some of the timing chain wear may be attributed to soot accumulation from the DI combustion process in these engines. Thicker oil may provide a wider mechanical separation of metal links in the chain, keeping the soot particles from wearing the metal. shorter OCIs may reduce the amount of these abrasive particles as well.
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Could very well be!
 
YogiTheCat said:
Doesn't it actually depend on the size of the turbo and how it's set up? For example, a turbocharger on a big truck diesel engine doesn't need to spin as much as on a gasoline engine to create 25 PSI of boost. I've been reading different things over the years as far as turbocharged gasoline engines are concerned, so I assumed a worst-case scenario. If you do a quick Google search you will find various results from various sources that say different things.
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This is correct. Its dependent on the size of the compressor exducer usually, they dont want to exceed 540 m/s tip speed. Since a larger compressor reachs this tip speed at a lower rpm, they will have lower speed limits.

On my 2014 F150 3.5L Ecoboost the limits are around 220,000 rpm. My stock tuning doesnt go much above 190,000 rpm at 6500’ of elevation but i have a tune that maxes out my turbos and pushes them to 220,000. At that point i believe the wastegates are blowing open because it will not hold boost. I decided not to use that tune anymore 😂

the ecoboost pcm’s can infer the compressor speed based in a bunch of data they have. There is an infered speed PID you can monitor with HPTuners or SCT Livelink.
 
ARCOgraphite said:
Add the fact that the turbo bearing housing is water jacketed with a "turbo timer" and separate coolant circuit .on most cars so the lubricant heating in the unit is through shear and then impeller shaft heat transfer from the ex side turbine. Given good flow, coking should not be an issue anym
Kuato said:
In the two F150s I owned with the 5.0, I ran 5w-30 and 0w-40. Both without issue and neither had noticeable power or mpg difference from the 5w-20. Very smooth on the -40.

I'd say bumping up the viscosity is a good idea since the 20 grade is for CAFE.

(Nice resurrection snagglefoot) 😃
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So is 5W-30...
 
Jackson_Slugger said:
And your evidence for this is?
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As soon as FoMoCo provides me with their turbocharger failure starts, I will be sure to pass them on to you. In the meantime, common sense will have to suffice, as turbochargers need good oil. The quality of oil that we put in our vehicles is one of the few things we as owners control. The bearing quality in turbochargers might vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. That's why some turbos can last longer than others, even on crappy motor oil. I've seen this plenty of times in turbodiesel engines.

Jackson_Slugger said:
So is 5W-30...
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Everyone has the freedom to run whatever oil they want in their motor, whether it's for added protection or just for "warm and fuzzies". 😁
 
YogiTheCat said:
As soon as FoMoCo provides me with their turbocharger failure starts, I will be sure to pass them on to you. In the meantime, common sense will have to suffice, as turbochargers need good oil. The quality of oil that we put in our vehicles is one of the few things we as owners control. The bearing quality in turbochargers might vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. That's why some turbos can last longer than others, even on crappy motor oil. I've seen this plenty of times in turbodiesel engines.



Everyone has the freedom to run whatever oil they want in their motor, whether it's for added protection or just for "warm and fuzzies". 😁
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I'm not the oil police and never said you couldn't and in fact I often have run slightly heavier oils than spc'd. But there was a time where some manufacturers (GM IIRC) said not to use 5W-30 in "extended highway operation"...
 
YogiTheCat said:
As soon as FoMoCo provides me with their turbocharger failure starts, I will be sure to pass them on to you. In the meantime, common sense will have to suffice, as turbochargers need good oil. The quality of oil that we put in our vehicles is one of the few things we as owners control. The bearing quality in turbochargers might vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. That's why some turbos can last longer than others, even on crappy motor oil. I've seen this plenty of times in turbodiesel engines.
.....
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Well you know they won't and I seriously doubt there are many to begin with. There are also a lot of Ford Ecoboosts with well over 100,000 miles on them with no issues as well using the spec'd oil. Yes turbos need good oil and always have but at the same time motor oils are not here to hide nor compensate for engine defects regardless of weight used...
 
ZeeOSix said:
Doesn't mean they still get CAFE credits for xW-30 today ... and hence the drive to xW-20.
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It doesn't mean they don't, either. In any case, that has nothing to do with your previous question...

Yes, quite clearly, the drive towards thinner oils began with the acceptance of 5W-30 maybe in the SF era as a viable motor oil...

Even 10W-30 has the Starburst symbol for fuel economy and resource conserving...
 
And whatever one thinks of "CAFE", do they really give the so-called "credits" on a weight of oil or the overall fleet fuel economy average?
 
Jackson_Slugger said:
And whatever one thinks of "CAFE", do they really give the so-called "credits" on a weight of oil or the overall fleet fuel economy average?
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Yes, I know ... using the term "credits" meaning using whatever means are used to achieve the monetary "pay-off" so to speak of meeting the fuel economy goals. There are lots of ways to do it, but seems oil viscosity is an easy way to do it ... easier than many other things.

These two chapters give an good overview of ways to get "CAFE credits".

4 Power Train Technologies for Reducing Load-Specific Fuel Consumption | Technologies and Approaches to Reducing the Fuel Consumption of Medium- and Heavy-Duty Vehicles | The National Academies Press

Read chapter 4 Power Train Technologies for Reducing Load-Specific Fuel Consumption: Technologies and Approaches to Reducing the Fuel Consumption of Mediu...
books.nap.edu

5 Vehicle Technologies for Reducing Load-Specific Fuel Consumption | Technologies and Approaches to Reducing the Fuel Consumption of Medium- and Heavy-Duty Vehicles | The National Academies Press

Read chapter 5 Vehicle Technologies for Reducing Load-Specific Fuel Consumption: Technologies and Approaches to Reducing the Fuel Consumption of Medium- a...
books.nap.edu

From Chapter 4:

Engine Friction Reduction​


Reduced friction in bearings, valve trains, and the piston-to-liner interface will improve efficiency. Any friction reduction must be carefully developed to avoid issues with durability or performance capability. An example would be to develop heavy-duty diesel engines to run on 10W-30 oil instead of the current standard of 15W-40. The lower viscosity oil would reduce friction, at the expense of bearing capability. Fuel consumption improvement from one source[9] was 2 percent, whereas another source[10] claims 1 to 1.5 percent. The use of a thermatic oil cooler (thermostatically controlled oil cooler) in conjunction with lower viscosity lubricating oils could yield 1.5 percent improvement.[11] The effect of friction reduction and oil temperature control will be greatest during cold starts and under light load operation, where friction accounts for a larger portion of total energy consumption.
 
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