There is only one brand of oil that I have seen no shear in any circumstance out of all the UOAs posted here.
Royal Purple 10W-30 4984 Miles Subaru WRX
- Thread starter edhackett
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“There is only one brand of oil that I have seen no shear in under any circumstance out of all the UOAs posted here.”
Hmmmm ... Jason, you wouldn't be talking about Red Line Oil by any chance, would you?
Ed, I know turbos can be a little tough on oil but we have samples of mineral-based oils going over 4,000 miles with no significant shearing. Chevron Supreme has put up some tremendous results on this site in both 5W30 and 10W30 weights. In the synthetic blend category, Schaeffer Supreme 7000 has also done really well out to 5,000 miles and beyond. I don't know if I've seen an example of this having sheared out of grade when used 5,000 miles or less. Mobil 1 SuperSyn and Amsoil are often tested (some even in turbos) and I'm sure at least a few have shown no shearing … especially in the 10W30 weight. And I don’t think it was oxidation (thickening) compensating for the shearing (thinning). I’m at work now and can’t surf too much but If you sniff around this UOA section, you should be able to find plenty of examples.
Patman tried some RP 5W30 in an ordinary Honda Civic. His wife’s car and she’s installed no blower or nitrous that he’s aware of.
) and after ~2,500 miles, tested a sample. It didn't look good and it had sheared a surprising amount. Now I know that 5W30s (and 5W50s, 10W40s, 20W50s, etc …) use a great deal of VII and are often shear-prone, but even your 10W30 sheared despite the fact you had less than 5,000 miles on it. I’m not sure that should have occurred.
I never really thought about this all that much but our resident oil analyst Terry Dyson has stated that an oil should stay in grade throughout the drain interval. Considering this more carefully, I have come to agree.
It may be that some oil companies want the oil to shear down a bit as a thinner oil will give you a touch more power and fuel economy. I'm sure you know some people who aren't happy unless they're using a 20W50 ... or even one of the heavier straight grades. Of course these rob power and fuel economy. "Tricking" people into using a thinner oil by allowing it to shear a certain amount quickly might give them better results ... assuming that the additive package is able to properly protect the engine parts riding on a diminshed hydrodynamic film.
I guess for specialty lubricants, I don't want the company second-guessing my needs or application. Of course, what I said above is just a general theory ... RP may not have this in mind at all. As you know, there is a lot we can’t tell from VOA/UOA.
“this is a synthetic, which should still be delivering a film strength of a 30 or even 40 weight petroleum oil.”
Most people here say the "street" grades of Royal Purple are a synthetic/mineral blend. Only their race grades are 100% synthetic (PAO/ester). Do you have more recent info on this?
In either event please continue stopping in here to contribute and post results; good, bad or indifferent.
--- Bror Jace
Hmmmm ... Jason, you wouldn't be talking about Red Line Oil by any chance, would you?
Ed, I know turbos can be a little tough on oil but we have samples of mineral-based oils going over 4,000 miles with no significant shearing. Chevron Supreme has put up some tremendous results on this site in both 5W30 and 10W30 weights. In the synthetic blend category, Schaeffer Supreme 7000 has also done really well out to 5,000 miles and beyond. I don't know if I've seen an example of this having sheared out of grade when used 5,000 miles or less. Mobil 1 SuperSyn and Amsoil are often tested (some even in turbos) and I'm sure at least a few have shown no shearing … especially in the 10W30 weight. And I don’t think it was oxidation (thickening) compensating for the shearing (thinning). I’m at work now and can’t surf too much but If you sniff around this UOA section, you should be able to find plenty of examples.
Patman tried some RP 5W30 in an ordinary Honda Civic. His wife’s car and she’s installed no blower or nitrous that he’s aware of.
I never really thought about this all that much but our resident oil analyst Terry Dyson has stated that an oil should stay in grade throughout the drain interval. Considering this more carefully, I have come to agree.
It may be that some oil companies want the oil to shear down a bit as a thinner oil will give you a touch more power and fuel economy. I'm sure you know some people who aren't happy unless they're using a 20W50 ... or even one of the heavier straight grades. Of course these rob power and fuel economy. "Tricking" people into using a thinner oil by allowing it to shear a certain amount quickly might give them better results ... assuming that the additive package is able to properly protect the engine parts riding on a diminshed hydrodynamic film.
I guess for specialty lubricants, I don't want the company second-guessing my needs or application. Of course, what I said above is just a general theory ... RP may not have this in mind at all. As you know, there is a lot we can’t tell from VOA/UOA.
“this is a synthetic, which should still be delivering a film strength of a 30 or even 40 weight petroleum oil.”
Most people here say the "street" grades of Royal Purple are a synthetic/mineral blend. Only their race grades are 100% synthetic (PAO/ester). Do you have more recent info on this?
In either event please continue stopping in here to contribute and post results; good, bad or indifferent.
--- Bror Jace
Patman
Staff member
Nobody from Royal Purple has ever answered the question as to why their oil thins out so much. Maybe they do want it to thin out so people will see more MPG and more horsepower than with their previous oil. But I think that's a poor way to formulate an oil. I'm super anxious to see how my wife's UOA looks after 5000 miles with Royal Purple 5w30. She's only 1800 miles into the interval though, so she won't reach 5k until early November. Then I'm switching her car over to Redline 5w30. I'll run a short 3k interval from November to April, then I'll run another 5k interval after that.
By the way Ed, why didn't you drive an extra 16 miles on this interval just to round it out to an even 5000 miles? I would have.
By the way Ed, why didn't you drive an extra 16 miles on this interval just to round it out to an even 5000 miles? I would have.
Having reviewed Ed's baseline oil reference and the used oil sample, the slightly reduced viscosity (9.21 cSt @ 100 C) appears to be due to some form of contamination reducing the flashpoint by 30 degrees as accurately identified by Drstressor in several posts.
To imply shearing from one oil sample from this application does not appear to be an accurate assessment.
Trend analysis is just that. To establish a trend from one used ICP oil sample point is fairly difficult to determine. Considering that other conditions of the oil, the additive pack, and the wear metals were excellent, further evaluation of the contaminant (most likely fuel) and operation of this particular vehicle and operating conditions is the required to determine a trend. I would like to also see a BN or AN as well.
Patman
Staff member
Patman,
You are amazing. DAVEC tells you the reason the oil has a lower vis, and all you can do is make it sound like he wants keep it under covers. He is trying to rsolve an issue for you, without getting all the usual brand loyalty BS from others. If you would listen, maybe you would have your answer. How many of the other oil companies have answered you, and how many want to do it on this forum?
You are amazing. DAVEC tells you the reason the oil has a lower vis, and all you can do is make it sound like he wants keep it under covers. He is trying to rsolve an issue for you, without getting all the usual brand loyalty BS from others. If you would listen, maybe you would have your answer. How many of the other oil companies have answered you, and how many want to do it on this forum?
Patman
Staff member
Where did Dave C tell me the reasoning behind it thinning out? I never received his email, and as of yet he still hasn't posted it on here either. I see no reason why he wouldn't post it here on the forum. If I phone and talk to him in person, I'm just going to repeat what he says on here anyways, as this forum has a right to know the answer.
So, I'm still waiting for the response....this should be interesting....
Patman,
Read the posts 4-5 above........
Read the posts 4-5 above........
Patman
Staff member
I did read it, but that only explains why Royal Purple sheared IN THIS CASE but it does not explain why it shears back in other cases when there is no contamination, such as my wife's sample where it went from 11.4 down to 8.8cst, but with no fuel whatsoever in the oil (sample came back with 0.0% fuel in it)
This is a trend with RP, so are you telling me that in all these oil analysis reports where it's thinned out, it's because of contamination? And if so, why doesn't this contamination effect oils like Redline, Amsoil and even Mobil 1, with all of these oils it is extremely rare to see their 10w30 thin out at all.
Patman
Staff member
One more thing. Ed's report showed less than 0.5% fuel in it, so it's entirely possible he actually had no fuel whatsoever in it.
Even with 1% fuel in my 10w30 Schaeffer Oil UOA (at 4400 miles), my viscosity was 10.1cst. My baseline sample at 740 miles on that oil change was 10.0cst. So even 1% fuel didn't hurt Schaeffer Oil's viscosity at all.
Even with 1% fuel in my 10w30 Schaeffer Oil UOA (at 4400 miles), my viscosity was 10.1cst. My baseline sample at 740 miles on that oil change was 10.0cst. So even 1% fuel didn't hurt Schaeffer Oil's viscosity at all.
I answered the question regarding Ed Hackett's oil analysis that is the topic of this thread. In most forums, this is SOP required by the moderators so that you stay with in a thread's opening topic. I would like to honor this.
I'll reiterate that anyone can reach me toll free (or any of the tech people at Royal Purple) to talk oil & applications.
Here is the number again. 1-888-382-6300. My extension is 202. You can also call me direct at 281-354-8600 x202 if the toll free does not work for Canucks. Here is my toll free pager 800-206-1523. (It might work from Ontario.)
The reason I would like you to call....as I have stated previously, time constraints do not allow me to follow every item that is discussed on website's involving RP. To be honest, I talk with so many people regarding industrial, retail and racing applications from all over the world each day that it is harder and harder to keep details and people connected.
In a simple phone call, you could bring me up to speed on the details.
Regarding viscosity changes, in researching the numbers found on this site, I find variances in most brands that are not being called out as "thinning". It's called trend analysis for a reason. It is hard to draw a trend line from a single data point.
From what I have learned so far on this site, your comments and interaction with anyone who does not agree with your viewpoint cause me to pause and say why? Why would I voluntarily open myself to this? Certainly not for monetary gain. The owner's are not instructing me to do this. Why? Good question. Why?
Here's another question?
If a person had a problem with a Honda or F Body vehicle and they were seeking answers and/or assistance from the manufacturer should they discuss it first in an open forum or should they first try and resolve the issue in an two way communication with the OEM?
If your answer is "a forum", I guess I'm going to be calling you Ralph from now on. (Figure it out - hopefully you'll get a laugh out of it.)
Hope to hear from you tomorrow. I will be in the morning but unfortunately I will be out of the office tomorrow afternoon. If we miss connecting, please leave me a message with a return phone number on my voice mail. I do return calls. Or, email me. My email is [email protected]
I'll reiterate that anyone can reach me toll free (or any of the tech people at Royal Purple) to talk oil & applications.
Here is the number again. 1-888-382-6300. My extension is 202. You can also call me direct at 281-354-8600 x202 if the toll free does not work for Canucks. Here is my toll free pager 800-206-1523. (It might work from Ontario.)
The reason I would like you to call....as I have stated previously, time constraints do not allow me to follow every item that is discussed on website's involving RP. To be honest, I talk with so many people regarding industrial, retail and racing applications from all over the world each day that it is harder and harder to keep details and people connected.
In a simple phone call, you could bring me up to speed on the details.
Regarding viscosity changes, in researching the numbers found on this site, I find variances in most brands that are not being called out as "thinning". It's called trend analysis for a reason. It is hard to draw a trend line from a single data point.
From what I have learned so far on this site, your comments and interaction with anyone who does not agree with your viewpoint cause me to pause and say why? Why would I voluntarily open myself to this? Certainly not for monetary gain. The owner's are not instructing me to do this. Why? Good question. Why?
Here's another question?
If a person had a problem with a Honda or F Body vehicle and they were seeking answers and/or assistance from the manufacturer should they discuss it first in an open forum or should they first try and resolve the issue in an two way communication with the OEM?
If your answer is "a forum", I guess I'm going to be calling you Ralph from now on. (Figure it out - hopefully you'll get a laugh out of it.)
Hope to hear from you tomorrow. I will be in the morning but unfortunately I will be out of the office tomorrow afternoon. If we miss connecting, please leave me a message with a return phone number on my voice mail. I do return calls. Or, email me. My email is [email protected]
Patman
Staff member
Dave, you've got mail.
Dave,
I don't want to sound sinical Sir, but you could have used half of the time it took you to write your last post and explain the issue at hand. I hope I'm not insulting you in any way.....I would have liked your explanation here, so that we could all see it.
Also, are you refering to Ralph Wiggum, from "The Simpson?" If so, He definitely got you Patman!
Rick
[ June 24, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
I don't want to sound sinical Sir, but you could have used half of the time it took you to write your last post and explain the issue at hand. I hope I'm not insulting you in any way.....I would have liked your explanation here, so that we could all see it.
Also, are you refering to Ralph Wiggum, from "The Simpson?" If so, He definitely got you Patman!
Rick
[ June 24, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
I figured the "Ralph" reference to be Ralph Nader.
I too see 0.5% fuel as minor. That amount showed up in all of my Civic's analysis and none of the oils I used (Red Line 10W30, Red Line 5W30 or Schaeffer 10W30) sheared out of grade even though I went as long as 7,200 for some intervals.
--- Bror Jace
I too see 0.5% fuel as minor. That amount showed up in all of my Civic's analysis and none of the oils I used (Red Line 10W30, Red Line 5W30 or Schaeffer 10W30) sheared out of grade even though I went as long as 7,200 for some intervals.
--- Bror Jace
Ed Hackett, I don't know of you or your work but
!
Dave C, great to hear from you again and I hope the busyness = business !
Guys Dave C of Royal Purple is a straight shooter and will represent his product honorably and not dodge honest questions ! And
!
Please Honor the proprietary nature of the cut-throat lube business he is up against.
This forum was established to squelch marketing spin. So both the consumer and marketer need to keep that in mind and respect each others position.
Patman is not a spoil sport of solid products and like most on this forum is honestly looking for the "holy grail" of lubricants that a overtaxed Canadian can affford !
I know both you fellows professionally and consider you friends. Please stick with the facts and keep it in the boards best interest.
IMHO you both are alot alike so enjoy that common bond !!!
Marketers be ready to have your product questioned. We thrive on honest looks and as AUTO-RX's Frank Miller has learned questions posted here are not always clandestine attacks on the product. Then at times some ARE and the Moderators, Bob, and Ed P are trying to keep those internet attack scumballs OUT.
Please all don't use a name or comment to spin your point of view here unless you have solid data to back it up.
Back to the discussion.
Dave C, great to hear from you again and I hope the busyness = business !
Guys Dave C of Royal Purple is a straight shooter and will represent his product honorably and not dodge honest questions ! And
Please Honor the proprietary nature of the cut-throat lube business he is up against.
This forum was established to squelch marketing spin. So both the consumer and marketer need to keep that in mind and respect each others position.
Patman is not a spoil sport of solid products and like most on this forum is honestly looking for the "holy grail" of lubricants that a overtaxed Canadian can affford !
I know both you fellows professionally and consider you friends. Please stick with the facts and keep it in the boards best interest.
IMHO you both are alot alike so enjoy that common bond !!!
Marketers be ready to have your product questioned. We thrive on honest looks and as AUTO-RX's Frank Miller has learned questions posted here are not always clandestine attacks on the product. Then at times some ARE and the Moderators, Bob, and Ed P are trying to keep those internet attack scumballs OUT.
Please all don't use a name or comment to spin your point of view here unless you have solid data to back it up.
Back to the discussion.
Patman
Staff member
Thanks Terry! I'm honestly not looking to discredit Royal Purple here, I just want to know the answers to my questions. It is very expensive oil up here in Canada, just as expensive as Redline, so I'd expect nothing less than stellar performance from it, and for me, that includes not shearing back out of grade. I will admit that I've been seeing better wear numbers in recent UOAs with it. Someone recently posted a UOA on LS1Tech from their racing 41 oil and it looked extremely good, it was about a 3k interval and showed less than 4ppm of iron and lead in a hard driven LS1 f-body. Although it also did not shear out of grade, I suspect their racing oils are built much better. It also had a whopping 1888ppm of zinc in it, and almost 1100ppm of Phos, and 140ppm of moly. So it's antiwear package is more robust than their street oils. It's TBN was still pretty good too, indicating their race oils could be used on the street as long as someone doesn't need an API certified oil.
[ June 24, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
[ June 24, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
I can vouch for Patman's objectivity. He does not slam people, nor does he go off on a tangent because of a disagreement.
Not saying that doen't happen, just not with Pat...
Not saying that doen't happen, just not with Pat...
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