Rotella 10w-30 dino CJ-4 6.5k miles; Dmax LBZ

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Sure the oil would do just fine in your LMM. But why not try it and see?

As for the mpg difference, I would expect there would be a very small change; probably too small to notice. You are, after all, contrasting a 30 grade dino to a 40 grade syn.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sure the oil would do just fine in your LMM. But why not try it and see?

As for the mpg difference, I would expect there would be a very small change; probably too small to notice. You are, after all, contrasting a 30 grade dino to a 40 grade syn.


Even going from a dino 15w-40 to a synthetic blend 10w30, my case going from Delo to T5. I haven't noticed an increase in mpg. the only tank I went over 20 mpg was with delo. That being said my last tank was 18.8mpg so I can't complain.
 
Originally Posted By: rufushusky
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sure the oil would do just fine in your LMM. But why not try it and see?

As for the mpg difference, I would expect there would be a very small change; probably too small to notice. You are, after all, contrasting a 30 grade dino to a 40 grade syn.


Even going from a dino 15w-40 to a synthetic blend 10w30, my case going from Delo to T5. I haven't noticed an increase in mpg. the only tank I went over 20 mpg was with delo. That being said my last tank was 18.8mpg so I can't complain.



Yea I will stick with Mobil 1 TDT and the Mobil 1 oil filter, can't go wrong there. Just about to hit 50,000 miles and the first tranny/transfer case service. Have the Mobil 1 Delvac Synthetic ATF ready and waiting as well an Allison spin-on filter. Also going to turkey baster out as much power steering fluid as possible and replace with OEM GM fluid. Have an air filter waiting too for the first replacement at 50,000 miles.
 
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Originally Posted By: Duramax_LMM
Originally Posted By: rufushusky
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Sure the oil would do just fine in your LMM. But why not try it and see?

As for the mpg difference, I would expect there would be a very small change; probably too small to notice. You are, after all, contrasting a 30 grade dino to a 40 grade syn.


Even going from a dino 15w-40 to a synthetic blend 10w30, my case going from Delo to T5. I haven't noticed an increase in mpg. the only tank I went over 20 mpg was with delo. That being said my last tank was 18.8mpg so I can't complain.



Yea I will stick with Mobil 1 TDT and the Mobil 1 oil filter, can't go wrong there. Just about to hit 50,000 miles and the first tranny/transfer case service. Have the Mobil 1 Delvac Synthetic ATF ready and waiting as well an Allison spin-on filter. Also going to turkey baster out as much power steering fluid as possible and replace with OEM GM fluid. Have an air filter waiting too for the first replacement at 50,000 miles.


Change your tranny filter more often! 12 bucks is cheap insurance.
 
Originally Posted By: Bambam


Change your tranny filter more often! 12 bucks is cheap insurance.


I'd like you to explain how changing a filter before it's necessary is somehow "better" and "ensures" something?
 
Jim,

A famous Allison trans shop in SoCal told me to change the "spin-on" filter at every oil change which is 8k-1ok miles following the OLM. Internal filter every 100k miles. Surprisingly, the Duramax engine's performance is adjusted by the computer based on several parameters, one of which is trans pressure. Lower pressure due to a clogged filter will cause the engine to de-tune since there's less pressure to hold/engage the clutches in the transmission.
 
Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Jim,

A famous Allison trans shop in SoCal told me to change the "spin-on" filter at every oil change which is 8k-1ok miles following the OLM. Internal filter every 100k miles. Surprisingly, the Duramax engine's performance is adjusted by the computer based on several parameters, one of which is trans pressure. Lower pressure due to a clogged filter will cause the engine to de-tune since there's less pressure to hold/engage the clutches in the transmission.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but this filter isn't big enough to flow the entire volume of fluid flow, is it?

In any case, some are wondering how I would dare question some famous trans builder. Well,even famous people like that aren't always as clued in to lubes and filtration as they could be. Not saying they are wrong, just that a short interval still doesn't make sense to me at this point. Getting a little over the "hijack" line but here's something from the Allison Website:

"The Allison 1000 Series™ uses two filters to maintain cleanliness of the Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF). There is a 'spin-on' filter that is externally accessible and is intended to be changed at each ATF change (see owners manual for recommended change intervals). Current P/N for this filter is 29539579. Because this is a relatively 'high pressure' spin-on filter, it is important to tighten the filter one full turn after the gasket contacts the transmission case. Also, there is a removable magnet between the filter and the transmission housing; care needs to be taken that the magnet doesn't get 'thrown away' with the old filter if it happens to stick to the old filter. Beginning with MY03, GM Truck is recommending that the spin-on filter (filter only; not transmission fluid) initially be changed at 7,500 miles. Following that, the filter and fluid should be changed at the recommended intervals.
The other filter is inside the transmission oil pan, and is intended to be changed only in the event of an overhaul."
 
Jim,

The Duramax/Allsion combination works a little differently. As I stated in my post.I guess in your case the old adage is apropos,

Ignorance is bliss...

Instead, I chose to follow the recommendations of a professional who repairs the Allsion trans. My cost is $7.54 per filter so it's cheap insurance...
 
I was hoping you'd explain to me why. Don't you want to know why, BoiseRob? You are the Duramax owner, not me. I'm just curious how it works. If you as a Duramax owner have no clue as to why, then who is blissfully ignorant?

Like I said, I don't know for sure one way or another but I know a fair bit about automatics and it makes no sense to me. I'll look around on my own, I guess.

FYI, the reason I sometimes question things like this... recommendations that seem fuzzy and without a clear rationale... is that I ran into several well known and respected performance axle builders who strongly cautioned against synthetic gear oils. In fact, they denied warranty claims if it was used in their axles. That made no sense to me and I wanted to learn something. I engaged in a couple of long conversations with representatives of these firms and learned they had no clue about gear lubes. They couldn't really explain why they were against synthetics, mostly just "that's the way we've always done it." But large number of their followers took it as unquestioned gospel.

"Cheap insurance!" Really beginning to dislike that little adage and it's quickly becoming a "Niagara Falls" expression for me (if anyone else remembers the old "Niagara Falls.... slowly I turned" schtick). "Cheap insurance," is perfect cover for a lack of facts or a desire to discover them. That's a general comment, BoiseRob, not directed specifically at you... especially if you come back with a good explanation.
 
Originally Posted By: BoiseRob
Jim,

A famous Allison trans shop in SoCal told me to change the "spin-on" filter at every oil change which is 8k-1ok miles following the OLM. Internal filter every 100k miles. Surprisingly, the Duramax engine's performance is adjusted by the computer based on several parameters, one of which is trans pressure.Lower pressure due to a clogged filter will cause the engine to de-tune since there's less pressure to hold/engage the clutches in the transmission.


I guess you didn't read my post before you posted your retort.
 
Originally Posted By: BoiseRob

I guess you didn't read my post before you posted your retort.


I read that but it doesn't go deep enough to answer the question. The filter is too small to be a full flow. So is it in the cooler flow or somewhere else? I did find that the filter has a bypass system that is designed to keep nominal flow at all times should the filter plug up. I also found that, for the years I consulted, the OEM change recommendation is 30K miles, with some years requiring a first change at 7.5K to catch break in debris.

After reading more, I think the recommendation for the filter changes MIGHT be for trucks running tunes and/or with a modified valve body or trans. If I knew which famous SoCal shop you mentioned, I'd find out more.

In any case, we've hijacked this thread long enough. If we want to continue the urination contest, let's do it in the tranny section.
 
Originally Posted By: Bambam

Change your tranny filter more often! 12 bucks is cheap insurance.


Way to start a hyjack. Just because I am about to change the tranny fluid and spin-on at 50K miles does not mean I have not changed the spin-on before. This will be the 4th filter change........

7/23/07 2,100 Allison Spin-on Filter
10/04/07 4,300 Allison Spin-on Filter
7/04/09 24,400 Allison Spin-on Filter
 
Since this is my thread, I don't really know that I can "hijack" my own topic, but I' think we're off course here, folks. However, I abhor misinformation, so allow me to chime in about the Allison.

I got my info from two guys who work at the Indy Allison facility, which is on the west side of Indy where I also work. I also knew (past tense) one of the quality engineers over there; she and I worked at Ford before we both chose difference paths.


The "main" filter (the big one inside the pan) is simply a chunk catcher in case of catastrophic degredation of parts. It's so porous it does not have a publised um rating. It functions just like most internal filters in most trannies, and sees a large volume of flow. It's only job in life is "in case of emergency".

The "spin on" filter is a "full flow" filter, but only by definition of it's design of the filter, and NOT the application it's used for. That little spin on filter ONLY filters the oil going to the valve body, but it does 100% of that flow. So, in some manner, you could call it a "bypass filter" because it only sees what the valve body sees and not the TOTAL flow of the pumped system. OTOH, it is doing 100% of the valve body flow, so it does need to have a reasonably high flow capacity and is NOT a "bypass" filter in the manner that most of us think of such a term. The um rating of the spin on (from Wix 57701) is 15um nominal. (Note - in contrast, the small "bypass filter" (Wix 57701) in a Ford 5R110 tranny line is truly a bypass filter, and is rated at 1um nominal!)

Allison's stated filter change intervals are well published on their site. The "interal" filter is only recommended at major overhauls and such; in general you should never have to change one, but many people do so in some misguided anal-rententive search of perfection. The spin on is dependent upon type fluid used (TES-295 syn or "non-TES-295" fluids). It is also dependent upon the type service factor. Note that what we think of as severe and what Allison defines as severe are two different things. Not many of us operate a vehicle such as refuse trucks or airport shuttles that never get the TC to lock up, and they are constantly flashed by heavy-footed, low-$-paid hourly people who don't care about the rig at all. THAT is what Allison defines as "severe". (I'm not picking on low dollar wage folks, but I think most of us understand that their committment to company vehicle care ends when their shift ends ... you get the idea.)

Use this page (the tranny in our trucks is the 100 series non-MH ): http://www.allisontransmission.com/service/changeinterval/
Note that if you use a "non" Allison fluid, it will not give any recommendation, but that's obviously a marketing ploy. The TES-389 fluids are what Allison calls the former DEX III fluids. That was their "new" spec they came up with when DEX III was dropped, and they needed a non-synthetic alternative to TES-295.

Using non-severe factors, and TES-389 (dino) fluids, the "normal" lifespan of the spin on filter is 50k miles for a 1000 series tranny.

I would trust Allison's recommendation over any super-duper aftermarket-hyped speed shop any day of the week, because Allison has millions of test and real world miles to back up their data. Perhaps in an ultra-hot sled or drag truck, these change intervals may not apply, but for most of us, Allison knows best.

And don't forget that as filters load up, they become MORE able to catch the dirt you're trying to avoid in circulation.


I disagree that frequent filter changes will manifest themselves in the "best" care; they are as big a waste as using synthetic for short OCIs. And often, you'll find those two paradigms utilized by the same folks. "Normal" folks can use normal fluids and normal filters and get a very long service life out of their vehicle with normal maintenance routines. There is no "need" for more than that.
 
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Good info, thanks Dave. Now I know and I can scratch that useless search (at least useless to me personally, of good use to DMax owners) off my round-to-it list.

Kind of an interesting way to do it, filtering the valve body oil only. It makes some sense as that's were debris can do the most amount of damage the quickest. Plus the oil that goes back to the pan is filtered to the level of the filters absolute rating. Depending on how much flow that might be, it might be similar to a cooler line fitler... a bypass system as it were.
 
The little Wix spin-on filter has a beta of 2/20 = 15/25 (nominal at 15um). That's not exactly high-performance by any means. I know, from reading posts here and speaking with someone close to Wix, that they often reverse-engineer their filters; if they cannot get the OEM filter spec directly, they will test the OEM filter and find it's ISO performance levels, and match their product to a "as good or better" standard. Therefore, the Allison branded filter is likely to be very similar to the Wix offering.

When you consider that trannies don't see any combustion byproducts (as an engine does), and the (likely) lower contamination rate of debris, along with a moderate filter rating, it's no wonder that the little spin on filter can last 50k miles in "normal" service on the Allison 1000 HS. Changing that little filter every 5-10k miles is a total waste, and gives a false sense of "better".
 
WOW !


All I can say I fee "better" being a waster.


I've cleaned crud off the filter magnet every time I've changed it. Good enough for me.
 
Originally Posted By: Bambam
WOW !


All I can say I fee "better" being a waster.


I've cleaned crud off the filter magnet every time I've changed it. Good enough for me.


Just so you know: I would die to protect your right to maintain your vehicle as you see fit and to talk about it any way you like. If those rights were taken from you, they'd be taken from me.

BUT

If you or anyone else tries to turn a "feels good" personal preference into statement of fact and claim it's better in some way objectively, I may call them on it as I did here and ask for wherefore's and why's. If you think I'm wrong, "call" me back and prove it. In the course of the discourse we may both learn something and that's what I'm all about here.
 
Originally Posted By: Bambam
WOW !


All I can say I fee "better" being a waster.


I've cleaned crud off the filter magnet every time I've changed it. Good enough for me.



I agree with Jim; how does this prove that wasting is equal to "better"?

The magnet is an independent entity that operates seperately from the filter. If the filter media were missing, the magnet would still work, and vice versa (presuming the hydraulic path were still intact).

I've not done a UOA on my Dmax Ally oil yet, but we can make some reasonable statements here ...
1) the magnet can only pick up ferrous material
2) the magnet is in line BEFORE the media
3) the media will perform "better" as it loads up (as long as it is not used to a point of being overwhelmed)

So, anything that is non-ferrous will pass right by the magnet. Other stuff such as Al or insolubles will pass right by. Also, the magnet's ability to grab particles is fairly constant in this application.
(note: the magnetic field does actually decay exponentially with distance away from the magnet as do all magnetic fields, but in this application the magnet is so large that this has no real effect in such manner. It does, however, not increase it's ability at all. My point is that magnetic fields decay with distance, rather than improve; we've all see and experienced this playing with magnets. So in theory, the field gets weaker and cannot hold as much. However, in the Ally 1000, the magnetic field is so large that this does not significantly change in the area allowed for it's phycial consumption of space. It does not, though, get "better" or "worse" when you clean it, because the percentage of magnetic field decay is infintessimally small in this application).
It is completely reasonable to believe that Allison sized the magnet to coincide with the OEM OCI of the filter; to infer otherwise simply makes no sense. In essence, I'm stating that a clean magnet really attracts nor more or less particulate than does a covered magnet, because the magnetic field in this application changes so very little that there is no practical, measureable means of discerning any difference. Your "clean" manget serviced every 10k miles or less will attract no more or less stuff than does my "dirty" magnet at 25k or 35k miles because the field is essentially the same.

Further, as the media itself becomes more and more loaded, it becomes more efficient at stopping ever smaller and smaller particles; that point is proven in countless tests. Changing the filter more often than necessary actually negates this benefit. This is both proven by scores of lab and real world testing, and also fits neatly into "common sense". You really cannot sensibly argue against this premise.

You might feel as though you're doing right by your truck, and that is fine. I completely agree with Jim that your rights to your opinion are every bit as valid as mine. But my opinion is based on physical world realities and proven factual data, and not tied to compulsive maintenance habits.

If you wish to convince me that OCD filter changes are beneficial, then show me real world data that supports your practice, please. I'm open to any factual study you can point me towards, that shows your position as "better".
 
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Didn't mean to hi-jack, have no evidence to prove my case. I stand corrected.

My apologies for mucking up your thread.
 
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