Yeah, I have had that come-n-go vibrations after rotations in the past. Can't answer as to why. Get the 2 on the front balanced again.
Rotated my tires today...
- Thread starter Papa Bear
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: grampi
I had no vibration at all before the rotation, so why would I have it now? Doesn't make any sense. Where the tires are located on the vehicle shouldn't have any affect on their balance. And why would the shake come and go?
Uh.... But where they are on the vehicle determines whether they are connected to the steering wheel or not.
It comes and goes because both assemblies are slightly out of balance or out of round. When the OOB is "opposite" (out of phase) the shake is worst. When the OOB is in phase, they nearly cancel out and you may not feel it at all.
I had no vibration at all before the rotation, so why would I have it now? Doesn't make any sense. Where the tires are located on the vehicle shouldn't have any affect on their balance. And why would the shake come and go?
Uh.... But where they are on the vehicle determines whether they are connected to the steering wheel or not.
It comes and goes because both assemblies are slightly out of balance or out of round. When the OOB is "opposite" (out of phase) the shake is worst. When the OOB is in phase, they nearly cancel out and you may not feel it at all.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi
I had no vibration at all before the rotation, so why would I have it now? Doesn't make any sense. Where the tires are located on the vehicle shouldn't have any affect on their balance. And why would the shake come and go?
Uh.... But where they are on the vehicle determines whether they are connected to the steering wheel or not.
It comes and goes because both assemblies are slightly out of balance or out of round. When the OOB is "opposite" (out of phase) the shake is worst. When the OOB is in phase, they nearly cancel out and you may not feel it at all.
That still makes no sense. I can feel an out of balance tire even if it's on the back. No vibration before rotation, and now vibration after makes no sense.
Originally Posted By: grampi
I had no vibration at all before the rotation, so why would I have it now? Doesn't make any sense. Where the tires are located on the vehicle shouldn't have any affect on their balance. And why would the shake come and go?
Uh.... But where they are on the vehicle determines whether they are connected to the steering wheel or not.
It comes and goes because both assemblies are slightly out of balance or out of round. When the OOB is "opposite" (out of phase) the shake is worst. When the OOB is in phase, they nearly cancel out and you may not feel it at all.
That still makes no sense. I can feel an out of balance tire even if it's on the back. No vibration before rotation, and now vibration after makes no sense.
I can't feel an out of balance tire on the back of the car. This is where I put em when they won't balance well(coughG/Y).
Originally Posted By: grampi
That still makes no sense. I can feel an out of balance tire even if it's on the back. No vibration before rotation, and now vibration after makes no sense.
Whatever.
You have an OOB condition slight enough that when the fronts are in phase it cancels out. That's pretty small, and you can feel smaller balance problems through the wheel than through the seat from the rears.
There are other more expensive possible explanations if you'd like to jump to those conclusions. Perhaps you have rear suspension failure which is cupping your rear tires. Now they're out of round and you can feel that when moved to the front.
Unless you use road force balancing, balanced is not the same as round. Unbalanced OR out-of-round will cause vibration.
That still makes no sense. I can feel an out of balance tire even if it's on the back. No vibration before rotation, and now vibration after makes no sense.
Whatever.
You have an OOB condition slight enough that when the fronts are in phase it cancels out. That's pretty small, and you can feel smaller balance problems through the wheel than through the seat from the rears.
There are other more expensive possible explanations if you'd like to jump to those conclusions. Perhaps you have rear suspension failure which is cupping your rear tires. Now they're out of round and you can feel that when moved to the front.
Unless you use road force balancing, balanced is not the same as round. Unbalanced OR out-of-round will cause vibration.
Last edited:
Grampi,
People and vehicles have a threshold below which the other vibrations in the vehicle - from the engine, the road, etc. - that will mask the vibration. You just won't feel it. That threshold is different for different vehicles and different for different people.
Second, the LF position is always the most sensitive postion, with the RR being the least sensitive with the other positions inbetween. This has been proven repeatedly by studies done by vehicle and tire manufacturers. But ocassionally, we'll find a vehicle that has a dramatic difference in sensitivity, front to rear.
People and vehicles have a threshold below which the other vibrations in the vehicle - from the engine, the road, etc. - that will mask the vibration. You just won't feel it. That threshold is different for different vehicles and different for different people.
Second, the LF position is always the most sensitive postion, with the RR being the least sensitive with the other positions inbetween. This has been proven repeatedly by studies done by vehicle and tire manufacturers. But ocassionally, we'll find a vehicle that has a dramatic difference in sensitivity, front to rear.
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi
That still makes no sense. I can feel an out of balance tire even if it's on the back. No vibration before rotation, and now vibration after makes no sense.
Whatever.
You have an OOB condition slight enough that when the fronts are in phase it cancels out. That's pretty small, and you can feel smaller balance problems through the wheel than through the seat from the rears.
There are other more expensive possible explanations if you'd like to jump to those conclusions. Perhaps you have rear suspension failure which is cupping your rear tires. Now they're out of round and you can feel that when moved to the front.
Unless you use road force balancing, balanced is not the same as round. Unbalanced OR out-of-round will cause vibration.
If a tire or tires are cupping, you can see and/or feel that. Mine aren't doing that. Any out of round issues would then have to be caused by a broken or slipped belt, which is also something you can see/feel. I haven't seen any evidence of that either. So I'm left with tires that felt balanced in the locations they were in, and now feel unbalanced. I'm going to try moving the the fronts to the rear and vise versa this weekend and see how that does.
Originally Posted By: grampi
That still makes no sense. I can feel an out of balance tire even if it's on the back. No vibration before rotation, and now vibration after makes no sense.
Whatever.
You have an OOB condition slight enough that when the fronts are in phase it cancels out. That's pretty small, and you can feel smaller balance problems through the wheel than through the seat from the rears.
There are other more expensive possible explanations if you'd like to jump to those conclusions. Perhaps you have rear suspension failure which is cupping your rear tires. Now they're out of round and you can feel that when moved to the front.
Unless you use road force balancing, balanced is not the same as round. Unbalanced OR out-of-round will cause vibration.
If a tire or tires are cupping, you can see and/or feel that. Mine aren't doing that. Any out of round issues would then have to be caused by a broken or slipped belt, which is also something you can see/feel. I haven't seen any evidence of that either. So I'm left with tires that felt balanced in the locations they were in, and now feel unbalanced. I'm going to try moving the the fronts to the rear and vise versa this weekend and see how that does.
Originally Posted By: grampi
.....If a tire or tires are cupping, you can see and/or feel that. Mine aren't doing that. Any out of round issues would then have to be caused by a broken or slipped belt, which is also something you can see/feel.........
Sorry, but that is not true.
The amount of difference in tread depth that it takes to get to a vibration level that you can feel is less than you can see and feel in the tread. To give you an idea about what we are talking about:
A difference of .001" (Yes, that's a thousandth!) of an inch = 1# (pound) force variation. So 0.010" = 10# and the difference between a 10# tire and a 20# is the difference between a tire that has no appreciable vibration to one that is decidedly vibrating.
Do you think you can see or feel the difference of 0.010" if the points are 180° away from each other? Me, neither!
But it is good you are swapping tires around. That should prove if it is tire (or wheel) related. Once you know that, you can start to focus on what else it could be.
I'm betting on irregular wear caused by misalignment.
.....If a tire or tires are cupping, you can see and/or feel that. Mine aren't doing that. Any out of round issues would then have to be caused by a broken or slipped belt, which is also something you can see/feel.........
Sorry, but that is not true.
The amount of difference in tread depth that it takes to get to a vibration level that you can feel is less than you can see and feel in the tread. To give you an idea about what we are talking about:
A difference of .001" (Yes, that's a thousandth!) of an inch = 1# (pound) force variation. So 0.010" = 10# and the difference between a 10# tire and a 20# is the difference between a tire that has no appreciable vibration to one that is decidedly vibrating.
Do you think you can see or feel the difference of 0.010" if the points are 180° away from each other? Me, neither!
But it is good you are swapping tires around. That should prove if it is tire (or wheel) related. Once you know that, you can start to focus on what else it could be.
I'm betting on irregular wear caused by misalignment.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: grampi
.....If a tire or tires are cupping, you can see and/or feel that. Mine aren't doing that. Any out of round issues would then have to be caused by a broken or slipped belt, which is also something you can see/feel.........
Sorry, but that is not true.
The amount of difference in tread depth that it takes to get to a vibration level that you can feel is less than you can see and feel in the tread. To give you an idea about what we are talking about:
A difference of .001" (Yes, that's a thousandth!) of an inch = 1# (pound) force variation. So 0.010" = 10# and the difference between a 10# tire and a 20# is the difference between a tire that has no appreciable vibration to one that is decidedly vibrating.
Do you think you can see or feel the difference of 0.010" if the points are 180° away from each other? Me, neither!
But it is good you are swapping tires around. That should prove if it is tire (or wheel) related. Once you know that, you can start to focus on what else it could be.
I'm betting on irregular wear caused by misalignment.
I highly doubt I have an alignment problem as I usually get at least the rated mileage out of a tire or more.
Originally Posted By: grampi
.....If a tire or tires are cupping, you can see and/or feel that. Mine aren't doing that. Any out of round issues would then have to be caused by a broken or slipped belt, which is also something you can see/feel.........
Sorry, but that is not true.
The amount of difference in tread depth that it takes to get to a vibration level that you can feel is less than you can see and feel in the tread. To give you an idea about what we are talking about:
A difference of .001" (Yes, that's a thousandth!) of an inch = 1# (pound) force variation. So 0.010" = 10# and the difference between a 10# tire and a 20# is the difference between a tire that has no appreciable vibration to one that is decidedly vibrating.
Do you think you can see or feel the difference of 0.010" if the points are 180° away from each other? Me, neither!
But it is good you are swapping tires around. That should prove if it is tire (or wheel) related. Once you know that, you can start to focus on what else it could be.
I'm betting on irregular wear caused by misalignment.
I highly doubt I have an alignment problem as I usually get at least the rated mileage out of a tire or more.
Originally Posted By: grampi
I highly doubt I have an alignment problem as I usually get at least the rated mileage out of a tire or more.
Why ask your question in a public forum if you're just going to shoot down every response or idea presented to you?
I highly doubt I have an alignment problem as I usually get at least the rated mileage out of a tire or more.
Why ask your question in a public forum if you're just going to shoot down every response or idea presented to you?
Originally Posted By: grampi
Yesterday I rotated my fronts to the rear, and the rears to the front. Now it's smooth as glass. Makes no sense. Put the tires on the front and they vibrate like crazy. Put them on the rear and nothing.
grampi,
Like I mentioned earlier. I've had this happen and I have also just had 2 tires balanced in this case. You have ruled out that there is something wrong with the allignment. Well, maybe there is in the back end or maybe you lost a led weight but, if you need a rotation, put the rears back on the front and have em balanced.
Yesterday I rotated my fronts to the rear, and the rears to the front. Now it's smooth as glass. Makes no sense. Put the tires on the front and they vibrate like crazy. Put them on the rear and nothing.
grampi,
Like I mentioned earlier. I've had this happen and I have also just had 2 tires balanced in this case. You have ruled out that there is something wrong with the allignment. Well, maybe there is in the back end or maybe you lost a led weight but, if you need a rotation, put the rears back on the front and have em balanced.
I had something similar on a former Cadillac. GM's G-chassis cars (Cadillac Seville/DeVille, Pontiac Bonneville, etc) were REAL sensitive to tire vibrations in the 1998-2004 era (and possibly spanning other years as well). I had one tire that showed just a little more road force than the others (18 pounds of force, vs 12 or less for the others). If that one tire was on the front, I'd get a steering wheel shimmy and vibration, but if it was on the rear, it'd be fine. Something in the front LCA on those cars was weird, and GM even issued new LCAs with hydro bushings in them to try to alleviate the problem. I didn't have that done on mine, and never replaced the tire because I didn't feel like spending the money; I just kept it on the rear of the car. That was the only car I've owned on which I never rotated the tires!
My 330ci had a "floaty" feel to it with 16k miles on the front tires and new rears. The tires are Michelin PS A/S. The front tires looked really good, even wear, good balance etc.
For the heck of it I swapped the two front tires side to side. What a change! Those tires looked good alright but somewhere something was off. The steering wheel was cocked about 8 degrees left and the car had a slight pull to the left.
I elected to drive it for a while like this and over the course of 1500 miles the steering wheel slowly got straightened out and the left pull disappeared - heck the car drove beautifully!
At this point I swapped the tires back and lo and behold the floatiness was gone! I have my BMW back
Crazy, eh? Anybody else done this?
For the heck of it I swapped the two front tires side to side. What a change! Those tires looked good alright but somewhere something was off. The steering wheel was cocked about 8 degrees left and the car had a slight pull to the left.
I elected to drive it for a while like this and over the course of 1500 miles the steering wheel slowly got straightened out and the left pull disappeared - heck the car drove beautifully!
At this point I swapped the tires back and lo and behold the floatiness was gone! I have my BMW back
Crazy, eh? Anybody else done this?
I don't understand why BMW against the tires rotation.
Originally Posted By: double vanos
......For the heck of it I swapped the two front tires side to side. What a change!.......over the course of 1500 miles the steering wheel slowly got straightened out and the left pull disappeared..... I swapped the tires back and lo and behold the floatiness was gone!......
You've got an alignment probem that is wearing conicity into the tires. By swapping tires side to side, you wore it back out. But eventually, you'll wear it back in and you'll have the same problem as before.
So get an alignment!
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't understand why BMW against the tires rotation.
In Europe, tires are all about handling and traction. They don't care much about wear. BMW is merely taking this to an extreme.
There is some loss of traction and handling when you rotate tires - although you have to be a trained driver to detect it. But since it is the trained drivers at BMW that are making the recommendations: ::Soup Nazi voice:: "No rotation for you!!"
Also, unfortunately, BMW specifies a lot of camber in the suspension. This improves the grip and handling, but at the expense of tire wear.
Personally, I think this is a case where following the factory recommendations is just plain wrong. I don't usually recommend deviating from those recommendations, but this is one of those rare exceptions.
......For the heck of it I swapped the two front tires side to side. What a change!.......over the course of 1500 miles the steering wheel slowly got straightened out and the left pull disappeared..... I swapped the tires back and lo and behold the floatiness was gone!......
You've got an alignment probem that is wearing conicity into the tires. By swapping tires side to side, you wore it back out. But eventually, you'll wear it back in and you'll have the same problem as before.
So get an alignment!
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't understand why BMW against the tires rotation.
In Europe, tires are all about handling and traction. They don't care much about wear. BMW is merely taking this to an extreme.
There is some loss of traction and handling when you rotate tires - although you have to be a trained driver to detect it. But since it is the trained drivers at BMW that are making the recommendations: ::Soup Nazi voice:: "No rotation for you!!"
Also, unfortunately, BMW specifies a lot of camber in the suspension. This improves the grip and handling, but at the expense of tire wear.
Personally, I think this is a case where following the factory recommendations is just plain wrong. I don't usually recommend deviating from those recommendations, but this is one of those rare exceptions.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I don't understand why BMW against the tires rotation.
Front and rear have totally different alignments, particularly when it comes to camber (lots of negative in the rear). A lot of BMWs have staggered wheel configurations and can't rotate.
I used to rotate often on my E39 despite the factory recommendations. Inevitably I'd end up fighting a "floatiness" or something like that, always wondering what ball joint or bushing was possibly worn out and finding nothing. One time I was routinely rotating in the middle of the summer and rotated back to the position the tires were in originally and the character of the car completely changed (tire pressures were reset etc...). Better turn in, stability etc...
In one of the US-based forums I participate in for E39s a member moved to Europe and posted about how none of the locals rotate tires because they develop lots of high speed stability problems as soon as they do (this is autobahn territory).
After those two points I've stopped rotating tires on any German performance-oriented cars, just like the manufacturer recommends, and I'm enjoying consistent performance through the life of the tires. I bought a BMW for its stable, competent handling and performance so I'm not going to torpedo those qualities with an "I know better than BMW" attitude.
I don't understand why BMW against the tires rotation.
Front and rear have totally different alignments, particularly when it comes to camber (lots of negative in the rear). A lot of BMWs have staggered wheel configurations and can't rotate.
I used to rotate often on my E39 despite the factory recommendations. Inevitably I'd end up fighting a "floatiness" or something like that, always wondering what ball joint or bushing was possibly worn out and finding nothing. One time I was routinely rotating in the middle of the summer and rotated back to the position the tires were in originally and the character of the car completely changed (tire pressures were reset etc...). Better turn in, stability etc...
In one of the US-based forums I participate in for E39s a member moved to Europe and posted about how none of the locals rotate tires because they develop lots of high speed stability problems as soon as they do (this is autobahn territory).
After those two points I've stopped rotating tires on any German performance-oriented cars, just like the manufacturer recommends, and I'm enjoying consistent performance through the life of the tires. I bought a BMW for its stable, competent handling and performance so I'm not going to torpedo those qualities with an "I know better than BMW" attitude.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Originally Posted By: grampi
Yesterday I rotated my fronts to the rear, and the rears to the front. Now it's smooth as glass. Makes no sense. Put the tires on the front and they vibrate like crazy. Put them on the rear and nothing.
grampi,
Like I mentioned earlier. I've had this happen and I have also just had 2 tires balanced in this case. You have ruled out that there is something wrong with the allignment. Well, maybe there is in the back end or maybe you lost a led weight but, if you need a rotation, put the rears back on the front and have em balanced.
I can't rule out a possible alignment problem, but how would that cause a tire to shake only after a rotation?
Originally Posted By: grampi
Yesterday I rotated my fronts to the rear, and the rears to the front. Now it's smooth as glass. Makes no sense. Put the tires on the front and they vibrate like crazy. Put them on the rear and nothing.
grampi,
Like I mentioned earlier. I've had this happen and I have also just had 2 tires balanced in this case. You have ruled out that there is something wrong with the allignment. Well, maybe there is in the back end or maybe you lost a led weight but, if you need a rotation, put the rears back on the front and have em balanced.
I can't rule out a possible alignment problem, but how would that cause a tire to shake only after a rotation?
- Status
