RLI BioSYN 5W40, 2986 Miles, BMW X5 4.4 v8
- Thread starter chefwong
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: bruce381
""My theory is that the initial fill of RLI sheared due to fuels and cleaning of the previous oil.""
I thought this stuff did not have any aromatic or chemcial shear? Which is it?
Also even if it sheared then the 25% make up oil would have to be >17.0 cSt to bring vis up to 15 form 13.
Bruce, you thought wrong.
Have you ever continuously monitored oil in a shearing engine with multiple oil samples across the mileage? (forget the shear mechanism for now). If you have, you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished.
Or, you can believe that the oil added was 17 cSt.
""My theory is that the initial fill of RLI sheared due to fuels and cleaning of the previous oil.""
I thought this stuff did not have any aromatic or chemcial shear? Which is it?
Also even if it sheared then the 25% make up oil would have to be >17.0 cSt to bring vis up to 15 form 13.
Bruce, you thought wrong.
Have you ever continuously monitored oil in a shearing engine with multiple oil samples across the mileage? (forget the shear mechanism for now). If you have, you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished.
Or, you can believe that the oil added was 17 cSt.
Last edited:
"Bruce, you thought wrong."
Says who?
stop Patronizing me
""If you have, you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished.""
YES I have for many years and I have never SEEN an oil go down to 13 at short miles than back 15 it does not happen in my world unless you count oxidative thickening then I would agree.
Without an UOA we will never know, any any thing you or I say will only be a guess.
bruce
Says who?
stop Patronizing me
""If you have, you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished.""
YES I have for many years and I have never SEEN an oil go down to 13 at short miles than back 15 it does not happen in my world unless you count oxidative thickening then I would agree.
Without an UOA we will never know, any any thing you or I say will only be a guess.
bruce
Originally Posted By: bruce381
"Bruce, you thought wrong."
Says who?
stop Patronizing me
""If you have, you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished.""
YES I have for many years and I have never SEEN an oil go down to 13 at short miles than back 15 it does not happen in my world unless you count oxidative thickening then I would agree.
Without an UOA we will never know, any any thing you or I say will only be a guess.
bruce
Bruce
I am not patronizing you. I was responding factually to your comment:
Quote:
"I thought this stuff did not have any aromatic or chemcial shear? Which is it?"
Your thinking is wrong. No one has every said that, to my knowledge. I certainly did not.
Here's an example of viscosity shear due to fuel and partial viscosity recovery that I was talking about. The oil used was Motul 0W-40
Miles .. Vis ... Fuel ... Oxidation
VOA .... 11.8 ........... 85
537 .... 11.9 .. 1.72% .. 76
1086 ... 12.4 .. 1.65% .. 78
1633 ... 11.6 .. 1.70% .. 78
2923 ... 9.9 ... 2.00% .. 101
Initially the viscosity of the oil in engine raises and stabilizes, then under continuous chemical/mechanical attack it crashes. The crash is easily recognized by the drop in viscosity (for this oil) and the spike in the oxidation measurement. Even though the oil is going through oxidation, it appears that the VIIs have been fatally damaged. This particular sequence was taken over the period of one trip with 90% highway driving. Had I run this for a longer period, it would have thickened back up, due to oxidation, and most likely ended up back near the starting grade.
Here's an example of an RS4 with Biosyn. 3/4 qt of the same batch was added between 1113 and 5065 miles.
Miles .. Vis ... Fuel ... Oxidation
VOA .... 16.1 ...0.35% .. 154
1113 ... 13.4 .. 1.55% .. 149
5065 ... 14.8 .. 1.03% .. 155
No significant oxidation change is recorded. Viscosity gets a boost, fuel is reduced and there are quite a few other indicators that the oil additive package has been replenished.
As for ChefWong's UOA, it is my opinion that BioSyn is cleaning his engine, and taking a huge hit because of it. There are some synergistic benefits of adding fresh oil to this after the early hit that it takes. It is clear in the oil samples I've taken with only 3/4 to 1 qt out of 10. I suspect that a larger synergistic effect occurs when 2 quarts are replaced.
"Bruce, you thought wrong."
Says who?
stop Patronizing me
""If you have, you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished.""
YES I have for many years and I have never SEEN an oil go down to 13 at short miles than back 15 it does not happen in my world unless you count oxidative thickening then I would agree.
Without an UOA we will never know, any any thing you or I say will only be a guess.
bruce
Bruce
I am not patronizing you. I was responding factually to your comment:
Quote:
"I thought this stuff did not have any aromatic or chemcial shear? Which is it?"
Your thinking is wrong. No one has every said that, to my knowledge. I certainly did not.
Here's an example of viscosity shear due to fuel and partial viscosity recovery that I was talking about. The oil used was Motul 0W-40
Miles .. Vis ... Fuel ... Oxidation
VOA .... 11.8 ........... 85
537 .... 11.9 .. 1.72% .. 76
1086 ... 12.4 .. 1.65% .. 78
1633 ... 11.6 .. 1.70% .. 78
2923 ... 9.9 ... 2.00% .. 101
Initially the viscosity of the oil in engine raises and stabilizes, then under continuous chemical/mechanical attack it crashes. The crash is easily recognized by the drop in viscosity (for this oil) and the spike in the oxidation measurement. Even though the oil is going through oxidation, it appears that the VIIs have been fatally damaged. This particular sequence was taken over the period of one trip with 90% highway driving. Had I run this for a longer period, it would have thickened back up, due to oxidation, and most likely ended up back near the starting grade.
Here's an example of an RS4 with Biosyn. 3/4 qt of the same batch was added between 1113 and 5065 miles.
Miles .. Vis ... Fuel ... Oxidation
VOA .... 16.1 ...0.35% .. 154
1113 ... 13.4 .. 1.55% .. 149
5065 ... 14.8 .. 1.03% .. 155
No significant oxidation change is recorded. Viscosity gets a boost, fuel is reduced and there are quite a few other indicators that the oil additive package has been replenished.
As for ChefWong's UOA, it is my opinion that BioSyn is cleaning his engine, and taking a huge hit because of it. There are some synergistic benefits of adding fresh oil to this after the early hit that it takes. It is clear in the oil samples I've taken with only 3/4 to 1 qt out of 10. I suspect that a larger synergistic effect occurs when 2 quarts are replaced.
""Initially the viscosity of the oil in engine raises and stabilizes, then under continuous chemical/mechanical attack it crashes.""
I would agree but I have never seen in a controled test engine oil increase in vis for some miles to a vis higher than when new
out of the bottle.
I guess it could happen if the VII was not fully solubilzed and as such in use at high engine temps and shear would dissolve it and bring vis up.
Again I have never seen this but I have seen VII's that would NOT fully mix into base oil till they got hot.
Interseting Idea disperse some Extra VII in the oil that over the life of the oil would dissolve and re fortify it in use without clogging thre filters hummmm.
bruce
I would agree but I have never seen in a controled test engine oil increase in vis for some miles to a vis higher than when new
out of the bottle.
I guess it could happen if the VII was not fully solubilzed and as such in use at high engine temps and shear would dissolve it and bring vis up.
Again I have never seen this but I have seen VII's that would NOT fully mix into base oil till they got hot.
Interseting Idea disperse some Extra VII in the oil that over the life of the oil would dissolve and re fortify it in use without clogging thre filters hummmm.
bruce
Last edited:
Something about the esters in Motul seem to do this Bruce. I observed it several times in my engine and others. But what was very scary was the catastrophic crash that the oil goes through when the viscosity drops through the floor. The original "thickening" does not seem to be caused by oxidation, but the viscosity crash is concurrent with oxidation, which is counter to the received wisdom.
I agree
And I would say thought that
""you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished""
should be prefaced with SOME VII oils (not all) may have this phenomenom more study is needed
bruce
And I would say thought that
""you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished""
should be prefaced with SOME VII oils (not all) may have this phenomenom more study is needed
bruce
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bruce381
I agree
And I would say thought that
""you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished""
should be prefaced with SOME VII oils (not all) may have this phenomenom more study is needed
bruce
agreed, SOME would be more accurate.
I agree
And I would say thought that
""you'd know that viscosity bounces down, and can even recover and bounce back up, if the VIIs are not permanently damaged, or are replentished""
should be prefaced with SOME VII oils (not all) may have this phenomenom more study is needed
bruce
agreed, SOME would be more accurate.
This has been excellent reading even if ittook a few hours to wade thru it all.
I have an Audi 4 cylinder/2L/dry sumped/street and track driven/GT30R turbo/750cc low impedence injectors. I run a standalone control module. Car has dynoed @ 640 chp on pump gas 93 oct.. The RS4 is not the only car that has fuel dilution issues. My fuel issues are somewhat more solveable due to the fact that I can control the fuel pulses and duration thruout the operating range, but during tuning and especially fine tuning it is advantageous to richen the fuel on the top end to keep the temps down. I currently use ELF 10w/50 and it is the 1st oil I have found that holds oil pressure where I need it at idle and also thru the operating range. I need 24lbs of pressure to make sure cams are getting oil. I used GC Castrol and 20w/50 Pure power din o oil and was unable to get more than 16 lbs pressure at idle when oil was hot. The ELF holds pressure at 24 when I raised idle to 1400rpm, the Pure power and GC Castrol could only do 19-20 at best. This is after I have used the tank heater to bring my oil temps to 212 degrees to cook off and prevent cold start, tank has 3 gal. oil. The problem got worse as time went by and especially if I had done a few 8000rpm pulls, I had always assumed this was fuel dilution, altho I never let it get bad enough to smell when I cracked the tank. I still have enough of the ELF for another fill and only have about 1700 miles on this fill. I see advantages in the formulation you have for the super secret squirell oil, and I am wondering if it should be my next fill. I am new to the list and dont understand everything being said, but I do know that what I have spent on my engine makes a rs4 engine look cheap and I want to protect it at all costs. I have read that the visc of the 5w/40 is close to a 50wt. and I like that as the car was built to endurance specs and the visc. keeps things quiet. Can you experts give me some advice here. Give me an outline of how to proceed and know what has been accomplished. Should I baseline on ELF, and then start OA when I start new oil, is there a good reason for me using the oil, etc.. I just want someone who has more experience to advise me a bit on this.
I have an Audi 4 cylinder/2L/dry sumped/street and track driven/GT30R turbo/750cc low impedence injectors. I run a standalone control module. Car has dynoed @ 640 chp on pump gas 93 oct.. The RS4 is not the only car that has fuel dilution issues. My fuel issues are somewhat more solveable due to the fact that I can control the fuel pulses and duration thruout the operating range, but during tuning and especially fine tuning it is advantageous to richen the fuel on the top end to keep the temps down. I currently use ELF 10w/50 and it is the 1st oil I have found that holds oil pressure where I need it at idle and also thru the operating range. I need 24lbs of pressure to make sure cams are getting oil. I used GC Castrol and 20w/50 Pure power din o oil and was unable to get more than 16 lbs pressure at idle when oil was hot. The ELF holds pressure at 24 when I raised idle to 1400rpm, the Pure power and GC Castrol could only do 19-20 at best. This is after I have used the tank heater to bring my oil temps to 212 degrees to cook off and prevent cold start, tank has 3 gal. oil. The problem got worse as time went by and especially if I had done a few 8000rpm pulls, I had always assumed this was fuel dilution, altho I never let it get bad enough to smell when I cracked the tank. I still have enough of the ELF for another fill and only have about 1700 miles on this fill. I see advantages in the formulation you have for the super secret squirell oil, and I am wondering if it should be my next fill. I am new to the list and dont understand everything being said, but I do know that what I have spent on my engine makes a rs4 engine look cheap and I want to protect it at all costs. I have read that the visc of the 5w/40 is close to a 50wt. and I like that as the car was built to endurance specs and the visc. keeps things quiet. Can you experts give me some advice here. Give me an outline of how to proceed and know what has been accomplished. Should I baseline on ELF, and then start OA when I start new oil, is there a good reason for me using the oil, etc.. I just want someone who has more experience to advise me a bit on this.
S4audinut
Nice race engine you have there. IMO, since you're currently running ELF, do a change and use it as your next fill and pull an oil sample at 3K miles. At that point, I'd have Terry Dyson do an analysis and interpretation on it. Then, when he recommends, I'd switch over the the RLI BioSyn 5W-40. It should hold up much better than the ELF, but analysis will confirm. It is an all out racing oil. Pull a sample on it at 3K miles, so that you have a good comparison to the baseline.
Dyson Analysis
Nice race engine you have there. IMO, since you're currently running ELF, do a change and use it as your next fill and pull an oil sample at 3K miles. At that point, I'd have Terry Dyson do an analysis and interpretation on it. Then, when he recommends, I'd switch over the the RLI BioSyn 5W-40. It should hold up much better than the ELF, but analysis will confirm. It is an all out racing oil. Pull a sample on it at 3K miles, so that you have a good comparison to the baseline.
Dyson Analysis
Whatever you try ALWAYS get a VOA done on the LOT # oil you are testing and try to stay with that LOT# this will do away with any false data from lot to to variations in ALL oils.
Also use the SAME lab that also will reduce variations in testing the better the data the better the interpitation.
bruce
Also use the SAME lab that also will reduce variations in testing the better the data the better the interpitation.
bruce
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bruce381
Whatever you try ALWAYS get a VOA done on the LOT # oil you are testing and try to stay with that LOT# this will do away with any false data from lot to to variations in ALL oils.
Also use the SAME lab that also will reduce variations in testing the better the data the better the interpitation.
bruce
Great advise, Bruce.
Whatever you try ALWAYS get a VOA done on the LOT # oil you are testing and try to stay with that LOT# this will do away with any false data from lot to to variations in ALL oils.
Also use the SAME lab that also will reduce variations in testing the better the data the better the interpitation.
bruce
Great advise, Bruce.
Last edited:
I really can't see the benefit of RLI in "this" case over GC.
"I" would continue to run GC and forget about RLI and the other "additives" such as Lube Control and Fuel Power. I don't see the benefits of any of those in this particular case.
As Bruce stated, the viscosity change is very weird. Provided the owner used the same oil (5W-40), why is viscosity in the first sample 13.2cSt, when virgin samples show it in the 50W range? Did it shear that much in 600 miles or has it been reformulated? Maybe the owner mixed different weights?
Regardless, the fact that it thickened just because new oil was added does not make sense to me, unless; 1- Different weights have been mixed, 2- The original oil sheared quite a bit and regained some of it's viscosity after 2 new qts were added.
This is the weirdest report I've since I joined back in 02.
Rick
"I" would continue to run GC and forget about RLI and the other "additives" such as Lube Control and Fuel Power. I don't see the benefits of any of those in this particular case.
As Bruce stated, the viscosity change is very weird. Provided the owner used the same oil (5W-40), why is viscosity in the first sample 13.2cSt, when virgin samples show it in the 50W range? Did it shear that much in 600 miles or has it been reformulated? Maybe the owner mixed different weights?
Regardless, the fact that it thickened just because new oil was added does not make sense to me, unless; 1- Different weights have been mixed, 2- The original oil sheared quite a bit and regained some of it's viscosity after 2 new qts were added.
This is the weirdest report I've since I joined back in 02.
Rick
This is actually a very "odd" set of UOAs when taken in totality with the previous UOAs that were posted by Chef Wong. Did anyone notice the Silver, Moly, Lead and Tin?
Thanks, I will pull a sample on the current oil @ 3k (altho I usually dont run my oil that long) see what he says, then switch to the squirell oil and get another analysis @ 3k on it.
Since I generally cook the gas out before starting with the tank heater, am I really getting the benefit of the oils resistance to cylinder wash down. It seems I should start seeing less gas in the oil to cook out?? If working the way it is alluded to, then I will be using the tank heater to get the heat up to operating instead of using it to cook off contaminants. Then I may get more comfy with longer drain intervals. Pls. comment if I am off base here - this isnt a playing field I know.
Since I generally cook the gas out before starting with the tank heater, am I really getting the benefit of the oils resistance to cylinder wash down. It seems I should start seeing less gas in the oil to cook out?? If working the way it is alluded to, then I will be using the tank heater to get the heat up to operating instead of using it to cook off contaminants. Then I may get more comfy with longer drain intervals. Pls. comment if I am off base here - this isnt a playing field I know.
s4audinut
YGM
YGM
- Status
