Rivian gets another $6.6B influx from the feds…

[alarmguy]

China is reportedly $231,000,000,000 deep into subsidizing their EV programs. They are well into their goal to overrun the global automotive industry. The US and European governments would be absolute fools not to fight back with their own support. There is no “free market” anymore…

It’s taxpayer money taken out as governments loans to pay people to buy EVs
EVs were never self sustaining. Not all counties offer the massive amount on money we do. Up to 11.5 k on each EV
And they still struggle with sales.
https://www.acea.auto/fact/electric-cars-tax-benefits-purchase-incentives-2023/

 

[demarpaint]

SMH.

 

[andrew_j]

[

Yeah, EV sales would fall on their face if taxpayer money wasn’t giving up to $11,500 per vehicle in cash down payments for buyers.
This isn’t even debatable

The price of gasoline/diesel is also subsidized by US taxpayer in form of very low road and state tax. Subsidy are normal part of US for better or worst.

 

[97prizm]

First, it's a loan (DOE ATVM program loan).

Second, it's the same loan program that Tesla has used. Tesla sits currently as the 8th most valuable corporation in the world.

Did such a loan inflate Tesla's failure or did such a loan help Tesla succeed?

If it wasn't for the carbon offset credits Tesla would have gone bankrupt. Tesla was burning money at an incredible rate up until a few years ago.

 

[alarmguy]

[
The price of gasoline/diesel is also subsidized by US taxpayer in form of very low road and state tax. Subsidy are normal part of US for better or worst.

You’re deflecting the direct payment of taxpayer money to buy an electric car which is “fueled up with energy subsidized by the US taxpayer.
Road and state taxes are paid by everyone and each state is different. I do think that EVs use the roads too

Either dump the EV tax credit (which might be a reality) OR have a vehicle tax credit for gas or electric

 

[demarpaint]

You’re deflecting the direct payment of taxpayer money to buy an electric car which is “fueled up with energy subsidized by the US taxpayer.
Road and state taxes are paid by everyone and each state is different. I do think that EVs use the roads too

Either dump the EV tax credit (which might be a reality) OR have a vehicle tax credit for gas or electric

It looks like the EV tax credit might get dumped.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Yeah, EV sales would fall on their face if taxpayer money wasn’t giving up to $11,500 per vehicle in cash down payments for buyers.
This isn’t even debatable

Tesla sales continued to rise when there was no tax credit. Going forward, if and when the subsidy is no longer, Tesla will be OK because they are highly profitable and efficient. Other EVs will be hurt due to negative margins.

Time will tell.

 

[JeffKeryk]

You’re deflecting the direct payment of taxpayer money to buy an electric car which is “fueled up with energy subsidized by the US taxpayer.
Road and state taxes are paid by everyone and each state is different. I do think that EVs use the roads too

Either dump the EV tax credit (which might be a reality) OR have a vehicle tax credit for gas or electric

I pay a road use cost at annual registration. It probably works out higher than paying at the pump.

 

[alarmguy]

Tesla sales continued to rise when there was no tax credit. Going forward, if and when the subsidy is no longer, Tesla will be OK because they are highly profitable and efficient. Other EVs will be hurt due to negative margins.

Time will tell.

That is speculation until proven otherwise. One fact is, their growth did not perform according to their own forecasts back in 2022. That was with the credit. IN fact it was horrible, stock price slashed by more than 50% and still has not recovered, years later.
Until there is no credit we will not know. I can give you one specific situation.

With the $7,500 credit I could have bought an Equinox SUV EV or a Tesla if I wanted a 4 door Lower to the ground car within an earshot of what we just spent on my wife new 2025 gasoline Equinox.

Because of that credit we did seriously consider the EV however version my wife liked the loaded gasoline model more. Not so much all the options was her motivating factor but the style of a big SUV in the gas version vs. the sporty lower small version of the EV. I might have went with the EV version if it was my vehicle choice, but I stood out of the way since this is her vehicle. Being petite she is tired of being planted on the ground in low cars, makes it hard to see forward. She made a good choice. SHE LOVES the car, being we are both into electronics she is enjoying it all very much.

Me? I hope the stuff keeps working for a long time. All said and done, she made a good choice. IN this case we will let my 2017 Traverse age gracefully and keep it for as long as we still own a boat as we tow with it. If we ever sell the boat, then at that time I might be tempted to get an EV like the Equinox form. In the meantime, being we still take trips we will be able to drive the new gasoline Equinox without range fear when visiting family.

 

[alarmguy]

I pay a road use cost at annual registration. It probably works out higher than paying at the pump.

I agree 100% and why I posted. For some reason Andrew singled out fossil fuel vehicles for benefiting from road subsidies... which wasnt making sense to me and why I responded.

(((((andrew_j said:
[
The price of gasoline/diesel is also subsidized by US taxpayer in form of very low road and state tax. Subsidy are normal part of US for better or worst.))))

 

[wpod]

[
The price of gasoline/diesel is also subsidized by US taxpayer in form of very low road and state tax. Subsidy are normal part of US for better or worst.

That doesn't make it

​

 

[KrisZ]

China is reportedly $231,000,000,000 deep into subsidizing their EV programs. They are well into their goal to overrun the global automotive industry. The US and European governments would be absolute fools not to fight back with their own support. There is no “free market” anymore…

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ers-got-231-billion-in-aid-over-last-15-years

We don’t need to subsidize our own industry to compete with the Chinese. It’s a fools game designed to further increase our debt.
But put a good tariff on the Chinese junk and the problem goes away.

 

[alarmguy]

We don’t need to subsidize our own industry to compete with the Chinese. It’s a fools game designed to further increase our debt.
But put a good tariff on the Chinese junk and the problem goes away.

Agree with the sediment ESPECIALLY the US debt, however tariffs make things more expensive for me as the consumer and US corporations selling Chinese products do not suffer.

Also at least right now, no Chinese cars are made here but it would be easy for them to open a factory here. Sadly it is not junk, it's why we fear them so much. Even the devices you are using to communicate in here are made in China and a HUGE percentage of every TV that will be tuned into football on Thanksgiving will have been made in China.

A large percentage of USA consumers do not care about anything except price. All my devices are a US company, Apple, most made in China, some Vietnam. My TV, Japan. Nothing is produced here. Almost every appliance made in China or Korea. Heck most people think GE appliances is an American company, NOPE GE is Chinese.

Most people think the pork they eat raise on farms in the USA is owned by a US corporation, nope, Chinese Company Smithfield Foods own over 25% of the US pork industry and a lot in Europe too.

 

[KrisZ]

Agree with the sediment ESPECIALLY the US debt, however tariffs make things more expensive for me as the consumer and US corporations selling Chinese products do not suffer.

Also at least right now, no Chinese cars are made here but it would be easy for them to open a factory here. Sadly it is not junk, it's why we fear them so much. Even the devices you are using to communicate in here are made in China and a HUGE percentage of every TV that will be tuned into football on Thanksgiving will have been made in China.

A large percentage of USA consumers do not care about anything except price. All my devices are a US company, Apple, most made in China, some Vietnam. My TV, Japan. Nothing is produced here. Almost every appliance made in China or Korea. Heck most people think GE appliances is an American company, NOPE GE is Chinese.

Most people think the pork they eat raise on farms in the USA is owned by a US corporation, nope, Chinese own over 25% of the US pork industry.

That would be a temporary pain, no different than the sudden price increases we experienced in recent years.

All your other points prove we need to kick the Chinese to the curb. People don’t care because nobody makes a big deal out of it, that’s why.

But we all know people will care if the message is delivered properly, less we forget the Ukraine flag flying trend.

 

[4WD]

Yeah, EV sales would fall on their face if taxpayer money wasn’t giving up to $11,500 per vehicle in cash down payments for buyers.
This isn’t even debatable

C’mon man - you want an electric HD with fake screamin’ eagle sounds - the battery can handle the req’d amp

 

[Fair enough]

I just try to buy an oil filter made in USA .

 

[Torrid]

I don't agree with the tax credit either. I didn't get one with the first car. It got cancelled sometime during the waiting process for the car to show up. I didn't back out of the deal because of it.

Again, I'm not for picking favorites in this matter. If we're going to whine about a credit or assisting one company and not another it's missing the point.

 

[Exhaustgases]

I just hope they are forced to pay it all back. They need to get their $ the old fashioned way earn it.
That 6 Gig could go to Social Security and to help eliminate taxes that old decrepid folks can't afford.

 

[alarmguy]

[
The price of gasoline/diesel is also subsidized by US taxpayer in form of very low road and state tax. Subsidy are normal part of US for better or worst.

Allowing people to avoid paying federal income tax if they purchase a certain type of car is not a subsidy. It’s a break for the wealthy in the eyes of many less fortunate families.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Allowing people to avoid paying federal income tax if they purchase a certain type of car is not a subsidy. It’s a break for the wealthy in the eyes of many less fortunate families.

You can make that case, but it's fair to say the cheaper vehicle price has a downward effect on used cars as well.