Huh. Didn't see that coming. Bet his car gets the reliability issues from Spa onwards.
Ricciardo to Renault
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I wouldn't have bet on that either. Well I wonder if Ricciardo had some inside info on how Honda power unit was doing at Torro Rosso and decided to jump ship?
It's a shame he didn't go to Ferrari, that would've been interesting and I think Vettel has matured enough to handle an equal driver.
It's a shame he didn't go to Ferrari, that would've been interesting and I think Vettel has matured enough to handle an equal driver.
wemay
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I think the writing was on the wall. He didn't appear to be happy and Vettel is blossoming as the lead driver. Renault and Red Bull have a nice rivalry brewing with Horner calling out the team's engine supplier for reliability issues. This move will add to that.
I heard he turned down $20 MILLION @ year from McLaren. Any truth to that??
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Its hard to tell how all the slower teammates on the midfield really stack up? I think Sainz is slower than alot of guys but he's proven to get along with Verstappen as well so that's worth something. If I was Alonso I would drive for practically free, like 7 figures, in either the Red Bull or Ferrari.
I hope Stroll still leaves Williams for somewhere and Kubica gets a full time drive there, but that may not happen now.
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Its hard to tell how all the slower teammates on the midfield really stack up? I think Sainz is slower than alot of guys but he's proven to get along with Verstappen as well so that's worth something. If I was Alonso I would drive for practically free, like 7 figures, in either the Red Bull or Ferrari.
I hope Stroll still leaves Williams for somewhere and Kubica gets a full time drive there, but that may not happen now.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Its hard to tell how all the slower teammates on the midfield really stack up? I think Sainz is slower than alot of guys but he's proven to get along with Verstappen as well so that's worth something. If I was Alonso I would drive for practically free, like 7 figures, in either the Red Bull or Ferrari.
I hope Stroll still leaves Williams for somewhere and Kubica gets a full time drive there, but that may not happen now.
Well, Stroll can go anywhere as long as his dad can find enough sponsors for him, Hamilton he is not.
Although I feel for him, Alonso only has himself to blame when he chose McLaren over staying at Ferrari. What makes an F1 champion? 5% driving skills, 45% luck, 50% car.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Its hard to tell how all the slower teammates on the midfield really stack up? I think Sainz is slower than alot of guys but he's proven to get along with Verstappen as well so that's worth something. If I was Alonso I would drive for practically free, like 7 figures, in either the Red Bull or Ferrari.
I hope Stroll still leaves Williams for somewhere and Kubica gets a full time drive there, but that may not happen now.
Well, Stroll can go anywhere as long as his dad can find enough sponsors for him, Hamilton he is not.
Although I feel for him, Alonso only has himself to blame when he chose McLaren over staying at Ferrari. What makes an F1 champion? 5% driving skills, 45% luck, 50% car.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Well we haven't had any major shakeups in the driver's market in a couple of years. Now we've got one.
Short term, this can't be a good move for him. Renault will never deliver a Red Bull-level chassis and their PU is essentially equal with Honda. In 2019 I'd expect Red Bull and Renault to be occupying much the same positions they do now. That means 2018 will be the last year of the shoey for a while.
Long term, maybe it's a good move with Renault or maybe in 2 years not being tied in with Red Bull makes it easier for another move to happen. Time will tell.
Red Bull aero with Renault engine is faster than Renault works and Toro Rosso Honda. Red Bull Honda will be highly likely faster than Toro Rosso Honda.
The biggest question is, is it faster than Renault works?
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
Well we haven't had any major shakeups in the driver's market in a couple of years. Now we've got one.
Short term, this can't be a good move for him. Renault will never deliver a Red Bull-level chassis and their PU is essentially equal with Honda. In 2019 I'd expect Red Bull and Renault to be occupying much the same positions they do now. That means 2018 will be the last year of the shoey for a while.
Long term, maybe it's a good move with Renault or maybe in 2 years not being tied in with Red Bull makes it easier for another move to happen. Time will tell.
Now, if I'm Red Bull, what do I do?
Even though he's doing well and showing promise, I probably don't promote GAS after just one full year with STR. The stakes are too high for RBR. That leaves SAI. He seems like a good choice with the right experience although his recent performances haven't been the greatest. Or, do I throw a hail Mary and say, OK ALO, you want the chance to go out on top? We'll give you a one year deal. That's very unlikely though with McLaren's 2019 Indycar and F1 plans being underway (although ALO can be slippery...).
Even though he's doing well and showing promise, I probably don't promote GAS after just one full year with STR. The stakes are too high for RBR. That leaves SAI. He seems like a good choice with the right experience although his recent performances haven't been the greatest. Or, do I throw a hail Mary and say, OK ALO, you want the chance to go out on top? We'll give you a one year deal. That's very unlikely though with McLaren's 2019 Indycar and F1 plans being underway (although ALO can be slippery...).
After all these criticisms against Honda from Alonso, I can't imagine him going to Red Bull.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
What makes an F1 champion? 5% driving skills, 45% luck, 50% car.
Here I agree. Where would Hamilton be today if he had stuck with McLaren? So much of it involves landing with the right team, at the right time. If Nico Hulkenberg had a good car, he would be a multi time World Champion by now. No good car = no championship.
What makes an F1 champion? 5% driving skills, 45% luck, 50% car.
Here I agree. Where would Hamilton be today if he had stuck with McLaren? So much of it involves landing with the right team, at the right time. If Nico Hulkenberg had a good car, he would be a multi time World Champion by now. No good car = no championship.
Alonso should just leave F1 and go to Indy Car. I'm sure he would have no trouble securing a decent ride.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
After all these criticisms against Honda from Alonso, I can't imagine him going to Red Bull.
From Honda's standpoint, the feeling is probably mutual.
When Ricciardo tires of F1 (or it of him), or realizes money isn't everything, he'd be a good fit for IndyCar.
He'd have to work harder for it, but actually have a chance of winning more consistently.
No headcase competitors to deal with, and fans embrace a driver who embraces them.
Like going from a cutthroat workplace where politics and backstabbing rule, to one where people like each other and socialize outside the office.
Alonso got a taste of it and has seen the difference.
After all these criticisms against Honda from Alonso, I can't imagine him going to Red Bull.
From Honda's standpoint, the feeling is probably mutual.
When Ricciardo tires of F1 (or it of him), or realizes money isn't everything, he'd be a good fit for IndyCar.
He'd have to work harder for it, but actually have a chance of winning more consistently.
No headcase competitors to deal with, and fans embrace a driver who embraces them.
Like going from a cutthroat workplace where politics and backstabbing rule, to one where people like each other and socialize outside the office.
Alonso got a taste of it and has seen the difference.
Originally Posted By: Carmudgeon
No headcase competitors to deal with, and fans embrace a driver who embraces them. Like going from a cutthroat workplace where politics and backstabbing rule, to one where people like each other and socialize outside the office.
That's the best analogy I've heard in describing the difference between European F1 and American Indy Car racing.
No headcase competitors to deal with, and fans embrace a driver who embraces them. Like going from a cutthroat workplace where politics and backstabbing rule, to one where people like each other and socialize outside the office.
That's the best analogy I've heard in describing the difference between European F1 and American Indy Car racing.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
I have a feeling Sainz is finished with Red Bull. Despite Indylan's view, there is some view he won't get along with Verstappen and I'm not sure if he'll want to go back to TR, let alone whether they really want him back. Of course, going back to the Red Bull family was the original plan as it was laid out when he was loaned out in the first place.
Sainz is in a pickle. He's finished at Renault, and really due to no fault of his own. If Alonso were to leave F1, that might help him, assuming that Force India's administration really is just that and doesn't turn into the team circling the bowl. If Stroll moves to Force India, perhaps that could open something up in Williams. And yes, your estimate of what makes a champion won't get any mathematical argument from me.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
After all these criticisms against Honda from Alonso, I can't imagine him going to Red Bull.
No, and Alonso has burned his own bridges. He'll never get back to Ferrari. He won't fit in at Red Bull. After all, Marko and Horner still are working there, and Alonso wouldn't be satisfied to drive. He'd want to be in charge of the team and drivers, too. He wants three jobs, not one. Nonetheless, I'd pay real money to watch him and Marko try to get along. None of this even addresses the Honda aspect, and I'm not sure Alonso can swallow that much humble pie.
It may suit Alonso to leave F1. He's a talented driver, no doubt, but no championship calibre team is going to give the man a seat. That's just not in the cards. The Ferrari and Mercedes young driver programs don't have enough seats for the drivers as it is. The Red Bull program isn't quite as backlogged, I don't think, but they're certainly not in a position where they need to pay Alonso large dollars to grumble, insult everyone, and try to run the team and the driver program at the same time.
Notice that this year, Alonso has parked the car every time he's out of the points. I'm not sure that's winning him a lot of friends.
Also, will Carlos Sainz most likely go back to Red Bull which leaves McLaren to stick with Alonso and Vandoorne?
I have a feeling Sainz is finished with Red Bull. Despite Indylan's view, there is some view he won't get along with Verstappen and I'm not sure if he'll want to go back to TR, let alone whether they really want him back. Of course, going back to the Red Bull family was the original plan as it was laid out when he was loaned out in the first place.
Sainz is in a pickle. He's finished at Renault, and really due to no fault of his own. If Alonso were to leave F1, that might help him, assuming that Force India's administration really is just that and doesn't turn into the team circling the bowl. If Stroll moves to Force India, perhaps that could open something up in Williams. And yes, your estimate of what makes a champion won't get any mathematical argument from me.
Originally Posted By: newbe46
After all these criticisms against Honda from Alonso, I can't imagine him going to Red Bull.
No, and Alonso has burned his own bridges. He'll never get back to Ferrari. He won't fit in at Red Bull. After all, Marko and Horner still are working there, and Alonso wouldn't be satisfied to drive. He'd want to be in charge of the team and drivers, too. He wants three jobs, not one. Nonetheless, I'd pay real money to watch him and Marko try to get along. None of this even addresses the Honda aspect, and I'm not sure Alonso can swallow that much humble pie.
It may suit Alonso to leave F1. He's a talented driver, no doubt, but no championship calibre team is going to give the man a seat. That's just not in the cards. The Ferrari and Mercedes young driver programs don't have enough seats for the drivers as it is. The Red Bull program isn't quite as backlogged, I don't think, but they're certainly not in a position where they need to pay Alonso large dollars to grumble, insult everyone, and try to run the team and the driver program at the same time.
Notice that this year, Alonso has parked the car every time he's out of the points. I'm not sure that's winning him a lot of friends.
Alonso had is best years at Renault. I know that was a while ago and this is a new, different Renault team, but I think that's the only other place besides maybe Mercedes-powered Williams that he could possibly go and be somewhat happy-ish.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I have a feeling Sainz is finished with Red Bull. Despite Indylan's view, there is some view he won't get along with Verstappen and I'm not sure if he'll want to go back to TR, let alone whether they really want him back. Of course, going back to the Red Bull family was the original plan as it was laid out when he was loaned out in the first place.
Sainz is in a pickle. He's finished at Renault, and really due to no fault of his own. If Alonso were to leave F1, that might help him, assuming that Force India's administration really is just that and doesn't turn into the team circling the bowl. If Stroll moves to Force India, perhaps that could open something up in Williams. And yes, your estimate of what makes a champion won't get any mathematical argument from me.
Sainz is finished with Red Bull is one aspect I did not explore. If he's still "on the payroll" I would assume Red Bull want their investment back unless another team "buys out" his contract. I cannot imagine the Williams seat would be a sensible option after having driven for STR and Renault unless there is no where else to go.
Originally Posted By: Garak
No, and Alonso has burned his own bridges. He'll never get back to Ferrari. He won't fit in at Red Bull. After all, Marko and Horner still are working there, and Alonso wouldn't be satisfied to drive. He'd want to be in charge of the team and drivers, too. He wants three jobs, not one. Nonetheless, I'd pay real money to watch him and Marko try to get along. None of this even addresses the Honda aspect, and I'm not sure Alonso can swallow that much humble pie.
It may suit Alonso to leave F1. He's a talented driver, no doubt, but no championship calibre team is going to give the man a seat. That's just not in the cards. The Ferrari and Mercedes young driver programs don't have enough seats for the drivers as it is. The Red Bull program isn't quite as backlogged, I don't think, but they're certainly not in a position where they need to pay Alonso large dollars to grumble, insult everyone, and try to run the team and the driver program at the same time.
Notice that this year, Alonso has parked the car every time he's out of the points. I'm not sure that's winning him a lot of friends.
I think Alonso has just passed the prime to have a winning team to invest a lot in him. Looking at a couple of "come back" drives in recent years, history tells us it only satisfies fans who are nostalgic about the good old days, e.g. 1) Schumacher came back from retirement; let's just say he didn't out-shine Nico Rosberg. 2) Kimi came back from retirement; some of the best overtakes probably came from him and he had some easy team mates until he re-joined Ferrari.
Athletes who end on a high note, people will keep talking about them like gods and legends. Overstay their welcome, they end up as a forever wing man.
I have a feeling Sainz is finished with Red Bull. Despite Indylan's view, there is some view he won't get along with Verstappen and I'm not sure if he'll want to go back to TR, let alone whether they really want him back. Of course, going back to the Red Bull family was the original plan as it was laid out when he was loaned out in the first place.
Sainz is in a pickle. He's finished at Renault, and really due to no fault of his own. If Alonso were to leave F1, that might help him, assuming that Force India's administration really is just that and doesn't turn into the team circling the bowl. If Stroll moves to Force India, perhaps that could open something up in Williams. And yes, your estimate of what makes a champion won't get any mathematical argument from me.
Sainz is finished with Red Bull is one aspect I did not explore. If he's still "on the payroll" I would assume Red Bull want their investment back unless another team "buys out" his contract. I cannot imagine the Williams seat would be a sensible option after having driven for STR and Renault unless there is no where else to go.
Originally Posted By: Garak
No, and Alonso has burned his own bridges. He'll never get back to Ferrari. He won't fit in at Red Bull. After all, Marko and Horner still are working there, and Alonso wouldn't be satisfied to drive. He'd want to be in charge of the team and drivers, too. He wants three jobs, not one. Nonetheless, I'd pay real money to watch him and Marko try to get along. None of this even addresses the Honda aspect, and I'm not sure Alonso can swallow that much humble pie.
It may suit Alonso to leave F1. He's a talented driver, no doubt, but no championship calibre team is going to give the man a seat. That's just not in the cards. The Ferrari and Mercedes young driver programs don't have enough seats for the drivers as it is. The Red Bull program isn't quite as backlogged, I don't think, but they're certainly not in a position where they need to pay Alonso large dollars to grumble, insult everyone, and try to run the team and the driver program at the same time.
Notice that this year, Alonso has parked the car every time he's out of the points. I'm not sure that's winning him a lot of friends.
I think Alonso has just passed the prime to have a winning team to invest a lot in him. Looking at a couple of "come back" drives in recent years, history tells us it only satisfies fans who are nostalgic about the good old days, e.g. 1) Schumacher came back from retirement; let's just say he didn't out-shine Nico Rosberg. 2) Kimi came back from retirement; some of the best overtakes probably came from him and he had some easy team mates until he re-joined Ferrari.
Athletes who end on a high note, people will keep talking about them like gods and legends. Overstay their welcome, they end up as a forever wing man.
That's my biggest concern for Sainz, is him getting thrown aside. I'm not seeing him as the next Michael Schumacher, but his not Pastor, either, and certainly has a role on the grid. We might think it's sensible for Red Bull to want to recoup their investment, but they've tossed a lot of people aside over the years. They had heavy investments in Kvyat and Buemi, too, not to mention Scott Speed.
It's going to be interesting to watch what happens. A few people are barely hanging onto their seats. A couple are probably pondering leaving F1 on their own. Some want to move. Some teams are in trouble.
It's going to be interesting to watch what happens. A few people are barely hanging onto their seats. A couple are probably pondering leaving F1 on their own. Some want to move. Some teams are in trouble.
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