Revamp the federal fuel tax

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Yeah, sliding off topic, I don't get "just in time". It seems like something the Japanese were doing, so we started doing it too. Except they know why they're doing it.
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Look at Autozone blowing out their oil for $1/qt; they have to dump it by a self-imposed artificial deadline to make some MBA's balance sheet happy.

I know someone who drove a regular truck route from Maine to Florida with premium unconcentrated lemonade in glass bottles. Seems wasteful but it's a premium product so the consumers don't mind, I guess. We also truck LOTS of Poland Spring water out of here. For "Public Relations" the trucks are plain white and don't advertise that they're taking "our" water elsewhere and beating up the roads in the process. It's a short drive to Rigby Train Yards but these trucks hit the Turnpike instead...
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"just is time" pertains primarily to manufacturing, usually not some sale item or grocery store items, but it could somewhat be applied to promotional items. A retail outlet having to "dump" product at a low cost is primarily due to the fact they bought too much and are having to store it, tying up a warehouse space. Better to dump the product and move on. That isn't "just in time" logistics. That is classic incompetence.

If you are, say, making autos. You could either spend gobs of money on buildings to warehouse parts, or you could just have the parts come in as you need them to build your cars. It is more cost effective to do the latter. Especially so, if a design change needs to be made to correct a design flaw. So, have the supplier make components and ship them as you need them for assembly, or "just in time". And problems that might crop up in the design can be quickly changed before you stockpile dozens of truckloads of the same parts. It keeps the amount of physical property needed to store components to a minimum and that keeps costs down as well. Imagine buying and having shipped to you, a million valves for your engine builds. Then you find out, the valves are defective and you need new valves. What a waste and a mess. If he valves were shipped in as you need them, you could catch the design flaw and make the necessary correction early and avoid tearing apart thousands of engines, having to repair engines under warranty that already made it into consumer hands, and have millions off useless valves sitting in the supply warehouse.

Food production is another situation where this comes into play. It is impractical to store days worth of the necessary components that go into making many food products. There is the greater risk of contamination or product going bad before you use it. Having it brought in as you need it is much more effective, eliminates waste, and ensures quality control. And again, if you find that that food component is bad or doesn't meet your needs, then you are not out a train car load of product, the truck can be returned quickly to the shipper, and reloaded with product that meets the need. Needless days of time and disruptions in production are eliminated.

If either of these examples used rail instead of truck, you would still have a lot of product that is "warehoused" on rail cars and such. Food product could go bad or be contaminated, thousands of wasted, useless parts that don't meet design control are still warehoused on the train. There are many examples where rail is not going to be a viable alternative to the truck.

It is really no different than what the average consumer does. The consumer usually doesn't buy cases and cases of oil, filters, parts, washer fluid, tires, brakes, etc to service their personal auto only. They will use that much over the life of their vehicle, but they don't want to tie up a big chunk of their garage storing this stuff till they need it, and shell out thousands of dollars at one time purchasing all of this stuff. Manufacturing and production saw the consumer model and realized it would work effectively and keep cost down and improve quality control. All true.

So there are many reasons to do it this way. And all of them cut unnecessary waste and keep costs down for the consumer. Even if one is doing it this way, or the old way by warehousing product, there is still going to be similar use of the roads to some extent. It is partly to manage balance sheets, but it also has to do with quality control and other factors. Just in time is a very valid business technique that makes things a lot better for all of us.
 
I would be in favor of higher gasoline taxes if the proceeds went straight to reducing the national debt. Have these taxes hit only gasoline, not diesel. Diesel=everyone's cost of living. Add 50 cents or even a dollar per gallon of gasoline. Suddenly, higher priced diesel cars are attractive again. Somebody might upgrade from a low mpg gasoline half ton to the Ram Eco diesel 1500. Or stop driving that old guzzler because it is cheaper per month to finance a Jetta TDI than paying for bad MPG.

Get rid of all tax credits for certain types of vehicles. Nobody buying a Tesla needs $7500 shaved off their income tax. Those credits, and their low to zero fuel taxes paid = nearly free road use. Most buyers of electrics and plug in hybrids are 100k+ household earners and can afford the car either way.

Gasoline is far too cheap today. If you go back about 20 years, the Dow Jones was in the 3000-4000 range, gasoline was $1, gold was in the 500s trailing to 300s in the late 90s.

Dow has gone up 5x, gasoline only 3x.

For how badly our currency has inflated, to be only paying $3 for gas is a gift. During this inflation, gas taxes have not changed. If you were to express the tax as a percentage, it was about 18% 20 years ago. That would be about 35 cent per gallon jump today if it was taxed as a percentage. Am i wrong?
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: grampi
18 wheelers do the most damage, therefore they should pay more in taxes...


And I do. Like to the tune of around $17,000, give or take, a year. Just wonder if my truck is actually doing $17,000 in damage. Not convinced.

But when it comes to commercial trucks, it really isn't me who is paying the road tax, it's you. I pay it from what I charge to haul the goods. You buy the goods, so you are paying the tax. So go ahead and demand that those big nasty 18 wheelers pay more of their "fair share". And restrict them to certain lanes of traffic, so that those lanes get beat to a pulp instead of spreading the wear and tear evenly. Remember that when you buy those parts at the auto parts store, when UPS brings that package, and you buy your Wheaties at the grocery store. Part of what you pay is going to that road tax, right along with what you pay at the pump.


There is a goal to a solution here. Getting as many long-haul semis off the roads as possible and shipping those goods via rail is the answer. Semis should be restricted to hauling goods from the rail depots to the final shipping destination. EVERYTHING doesn't NEED to be shipped by truck. Shipping long-haul goods via rail burns far less fuel, it would alleviate most of the wear and tear on our highways, and it would clear up a lot of the nationwide traffic jams...
 
Around the South Chicago area they have huge rail yards for the trailer trains and containers. Some trains are 5 miles long and nothing but containers that then get transferred to the roads. It's unreal how much this reduces the load on the interstates between metropolitan areas. But they also put a heavy burden on the local roads where the trucks take the containers away.

The use of ethanol too is a sneaky tax hike. It reduces your mileage and you buy more gas for the same miles driven. In Illinois half the state sales tax on gasoline with ethanol gets rebated back to the service station.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Then we have to look at how highway funds were used to fund a tea pot museum in S. Carolina a few years ago. One of the groups that uncover wasteful spending dug that one out. There is a lot of that highway money that goes anywhere but to roads and infrastructure. A few years ago, a trucking industry rag ran the numbers and determined that less than 50% goes to actual roads and infrastructure. That I am not sure of, but I do know this.... We built the entire Alaska Highway in 18 months back in the 40's using 30's and 40's technology. Today, we can't seem to get a new intersection on an freeway done in that time frame. There is a tremendous amount of cost overrun and delays that is eating up a vast chunk of highway funds.

Back in the 1930s and 1940s, there weren't many environmental laws.

That in mind, I highly doubt that just having environmental laws is the problem.

My father was an electrician in NYC during the 1970s, and what he saw was that the labor unions would demand a certain number of people to do one job. He said he would see 5 men slowly doing a 1 man job. That is one reason for absurd costs. He relocated to Texas because businesses were relocating there so that you could hire 1 man to do a 1 man job.
 
They stretch out the big road projects to bolster the employment numbers. It seems everything in Illinois takes a year longer than before. But they all quit by 2pm in the afternoon.
 
My dad's family was very large, one of his Uncles was a road builder in Georgia for many decades.

He always said it was one of the crookedest businesses in the world. Had to pay bribes or you NEVER got any work, and HUGE sums were siphoned off for more corruption.

I'm sure it's all better today. Everyone here knows how well our Govt spends our money...
 
The diesel fuel tax is higher, usually, than the gasoline tax. You can bet, if they raise the gasoline tax, they will have more than ample reasoning to increase the diesel fuel tax also. Never the less, it will just go in to the black hole of waste that passes for government.

I never cease to be amazed at how, using 1930's equipment, the Alaska-Canada highway was built in the early 40's, over 1500 miles, in 18 months. Yet today, we can't seem to get a bridge or a interchange done in that time frame. And using all that modern technology we have now, they can't seem to get a road and a bridge the same height!
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
The diesel fuel tax is higher, usually, than the gasoline tax. You can bet, if they raise the gasoline tax, they will have more than ample reasoning to increase the diesel fuel tax also. Never the less, it will just go in to the black hole of waste that passes for government.

I never cease to be amazed at how, using 1930's equipment, the Alaska-Canada highway was built in the early 40's, over 1500 miles, in 18 months. Yet today, we can't seem to get a bridge or a interchange done in that time frame. And using all that modern technology we have now, they can't seem to get a road and a bridge the same height!


Man you got that right! The bridges on the freeways throughout the Midwest are horrible...I'll never understand why they can't make the pavement on the bridge level with the pavement on the adjoining road...it seems there is always a huge hump or dip where the two meet....I don't know if they don't have the ability to make these transitions smooth, or they just don't care...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
My dad's family was very large, one of his Uncles was a road builder in Georgia for many decades.

He always said it was one of the crookedest businesses in the world. Had to pay bribes or you NEVER got any work, and HUGE sums were siphoned off for more corruption.

I'm sure it's all better today. Everyone here knows how well our Govt spends our money...


Corruption in public officials should be punished with public crucifixion.
 
Most places, the gasoline tax pays about 50% of the cost of the roads. That shoudn't be surprising, since it hasn't been raised at the federal level for 20 years.

I doubt that there are any big savings to be made in road construction. Privately built turnpikes are about twice as expensive as freeways. I don't doubt SRT's story about corruption in Georgia, but you never hear about a state that is really good at putting up freeways for cheap. Out of the 50 states there should be one or two good at keeping the costs down.

I don't know why we are supposed to completely revamp the tax system because we neglected to raise the gas tax all these years. Raise it to a reasonable level (to about 75 cents per gallon) where we can keep the roads in good repair and maybe get started on the backlog of neglect. Index the tax to construction costs and plan on revisiting it every 5 years to make up for increased fuel economy.
 
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