Revamp the federal fuel tax

[blackman777]

The DOT or EPA would argue the city driver "deserves" to pay more taxes because their frequent stop/go is chewing up the road more than a highway driver. Also more pollution (which is a negative act which should be discouraged, like cigarette pollution).

Only EVs still get a tax credit (not hybrids). I'm not sure what CA registration cost me..... I paid the bill & it did not seem any worse than what I used to pay in Maryland. (shrug)

I'm still curious how you would collect this annual tax in a state that has no annual inspections. Forcing Maryland owners to visit the garage just so the mechanic can read the odometer seems onerous to me. (Also violates the 10th... U.S. government can not compel a state to do inspections if said state says "no".)

 

[FXjohn]

the only fair way is to just tax gas.

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: BISCUT
I'm against the mile per tax or any additional taxes I already pay a hefty gas tax and here in NY

It's not about how much it cost, it's about how they collect it. Your gas taxes wouldn't be so hefty if everybody paid their fair share. (Unless you already drive a hybrid/EV and are not currently paying your share)


Originally Posted By: blackman777

Forcing Maryland owners to visit the garage just so the mechanic can read the odometer seems onerous to me. (Also violates the 10th... U.S. government can not compel a state to do inspections if said state says "no".)

Is that really that hard? I've read the constitution and I can't say I ever saw anything in there about automobiles. Most states already have some form of inspections.

The pilot program in Oregon does not require any odometer reading, it's all automatic and wireless at the gas station. I'm sure people who freak out and think the government is watching them will have an option to buy their gas pre taxed just like they do today. (And pay more for it) The equipment to read the mileage probably won't be compatible with older vehicles still on the road.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Also how many citizens are prepared to be hit by a $500 bill at inspection time?

Funny somebody from California would say that! How much does it cost to register a car there?

I'm not going to say anything about the current tax rate or how they use it, but, the way they collect it, is completely broken and stupid. We just had this discussion in another thread. My diesel F350 could get upwards of 20mpg on the highway. On the other hand, the same truck with a V10 gas engine might only get 9mpg in the city. Now you are paying more than double the gas tax for the same amount of wear to the road! That is not fair.


Diesel is taxed higher than gasoline.

Quote:
And then there are the people driving hybrids, electric cars, and burning biodiesel. That is flat out tax evasion - yet they still get a tax CREDIT for buying them! All of you driving those little tiny cars should thank the guys driving big trucks for subsidizing your road taxes. Why don't we have an electric road tax? Every other fuel that could be used to "propel" a vehicle on a public road is taxed.

The state of Oregon already has a pilot program for paying by the mile, and I support it 1000%. Another benefit to that would be that it would be very easy to buy tax free gas for your lawnmower, generator, etc...


Yeah, except the end result will be (not might be, WILL BE) paying the gas tax AND paying per mile!

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I'm not sure what CA registration cost me..... I paid the bill & it did not seem any worse than what I used to pay in Maryland. (shrug)

I just looked it up on the California DMV website. It would cost me $1,632 to register my truck in California. In Oregon it cost me $86. Your little idea about people not wanting to pay a one time fee does not hold water.

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

Diesel is taxed higher than gasoline.

Not at the state level.

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

Yeah, except the end result will be (not might be, WILL BE) paying the gas tax AND paying per mile!

Says you. The people in the Oregon pilot program are not paying more. Do you not think the current system is broken? What is your solution to what is obviously a big and growing problem?

Oregon was the first state to implement a gas tax, (even before the feds) and look what happened to the rest of the country. Same for bottle deposits. Now they are trying road mile taxes, I bet $100 to anyone that it will spread whether you like it or not.

 

[blackman777]

So it isn't enough the NSA is hacking internet servers & creating databases of all our internet browsing. Now the NSA will be able to track our "road mile tollmeter" and create databases of everywhere we've been. (Along with collecting DNA alongside roadways in Texas and Pennsylvania.) No thanks.

People keep hitting on the hybrids. If I drove a Civic VX that gets 50 miles/gallon (and is not a hybrid) would that make you happier? Or a Lupo 3L that gets 80 miles/gallon of diesel? Al Gore may be a jerk, but I agree with him that people who drive low-polluting vehicles should pay less in fuel taxes. It's a minireward for being a good citizen
Originally Posted By: Number21
It would cost me $1,632 to register my truck in California. In Oregon it cost me $86.

You are confusing sales tax with registration fee. If you registered your car in some other state, like the aforementioned Maryland, you would have to pay sales tax there too. (And in Virginia, you have to pay an annual tax on the value of the car!)

As for the Constitution, it explicitly states the Congress may not compel the States to perform actions they do not want to do. In one recent case, the Supreme Court overturned a Congressional law forcing states to build underground disposal for nuclear waste! They cited the 10th amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution... are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What that means is that the Congress can not force Member States to have annual inspections of cars. The U.S.C. is not just a piece of paper to ignore. It's the law. It might be worthwhile to know what the law says.

 

[eljefino]

The feds churn a lot of their gas tax money to the states to keep up the Interstate highway system. This comes with strings attached, like the legal drinking age of 21, 55-65 mph speed limits, etc. The states would be foolish to refuse. Nevada tried and was

 

[Number21]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Now the NSA will be able to track our "road mile tollmeter" and create databases of everywhere we've been.

Absolutely not! It has NOTHING to do with WHERE you have been! It's sad that the paranoid always have to turn these into discussions about that...


Originally Posted By: blackman777

People keep hitting on the hybrids. If I drove a Civic VX that gets 50 miles/gallon (and is not a hybrid) would that make you happier?

No. That is why the current tax system does not work! When it was invented most cars got the same gas mileage and caused the same wear. With the variety of cars and road available today, it simply does not work anymore!

Originally Posted By: blackman777

You are confusing sales tax with registration fee. If you registered your car in some other state, like the aforementioned Maryland, you would have to pay sales tax there too. (And in Virginia, you have to pay an annual tax on the value of the car!)

Absolutely not. According to the calculator on the California DMV website, my truck, as a vehicle from out of state, would cost $1600 to register. Not sales tax. That would be on top of that. If I just move there with this truck I already own that's how much it cost. That's on a $15k vehicle, if it was worth more, the registration would be even higher. Vehicles newly registered in the state pay hefty fees also. And even if you don't register/drive a vehicle for ten years, you still owe ten years of registration if you ever want to make it legal again.

Renewals might be less, but they are still more than most states, and, are still quite large. My point is, people are already paying these big yearly fees without much trouble.

Originally Posted By: blackman777
What that means is that the Congress can not force Member States to have annual inspections of cars. The U.S.C. is not just a piece of paper to ignore. It's the law. It might be worthwhile to know what the law says.

State: "we don't want to do what you want"
Feds: "OK, no more federal tax dollars for you"
State: "My apologies master. Please give me the money, I will do anything you want"

 

[sciphi]

Raise the blasted federal gas tax already and be done with it. That's about the fairest way to do things without going all Big Data on folks.

 

[TiredTrucker]

According to my state senator, when Federal funds are allocated to road building/repair, a percentage have to be used for art and beautification. Yep, you read that right. This is why you see a lot more artistic bridge work around metro areas and special landscaping projects along highways and junctions. How that keeps you from busting a shock in a pothole is beyond me.

Then we have to look at how highway funds were used to fund a tea pot museum in S. Carolina a few years ago. One of the groups that uncover wasteful spending dug that one out. There is a lot of that highway money that goes anywhere but to roads and infrastructure. A few years ago, a trucking industry rag ran the numbers and determined that less than 50% goes to actual roads and infrastructure. That I am not sure of, but I do know this.... We built the entire Alaska Highway in 18 months back in the 40's using 30's and 40's technology. Today, we can't seem to get a new intersection on an freeway done in that time frame. There is a tremendous amount of cost overrun and delays that is eating up a vast chunk of highway funds.

 

[blackman777]

In Maryland they have a separate fund to cover motorists' medical care if hit by an uninsured driver. The legislature is 75% democrat and they had promised the city dwellers a new metro train, so to keep the promise they emptied the medical fund.

Misappropriation is how politicians work.

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Now the NSA will be able to track our "road mile tollmeter" and create databases of everywhere we've been.

Absolutely not! It has NOTHING to do with WHERE you have been! It's sad that the paranoid always have to turn these into discussions about that...

History shows the government can not be trusted. I have a friend whose grandmother spent 4 years imprisoned in a concentration camp. Her crime? She was a natural-born American but her mother was born in Japan, so the government rounded her up & took away her freedom.

And yes the "mile log" trackers would show that (for example) I drove through a tollbooth in Baltimore, then a toll booth on the Delaware bridge, then several on PA turnpike, and another in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and so on. Not hard to figure out where I'm headed & apprehend me.

And then I too would be in a concentration camp, like my friend's grandmother. History repeats. (And even if it doesn't, given how many videos on youtube show cops beating citizens (or outright killing them) why would I want to subject myself to such a danger?)

I had an instance on a Texas interstate where the guards asked "Are you a US citizen?" and I said yes. They then demanded to search my trunk, and I asked if they have a warrant. They said "no" so I said that's your answer. They forced me to stand for over an hour in the hot sun before finally letting me go. I got a nice sunburn from the encounter with these tyrants.

"No warrant; no search." - ACLU

 

[blackman777]

P.S. During the last 100 years, governments killed 150 million of their OWN citizens. (About 5 million of those were killed by the US or state governments.) Trusting an entity with that kind of record seems foolish to me.

Even if the present government is an angel on earth, what about a future government? We have no idea what future dictator might rise-up (another Bush?) and start rounding-up citizens. It makes no sense to make his job easy by having transponders broadcasting "Here I am."

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Donald
An article in the NYT today talked about how the federal fuel tax is not keeping up with funding of highway and bridge projects.


I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the government is not keeping up with using 100% of the fuel tax to pay for the roads. In other words, if history repeats itself, the fuel tax is being used to pay for a bunch of other projects. IBTL.




Exactly!

The GW Bridge charges a $13 toll to go across it and yet there are potholes on both approaches and even on the bridge....the 'tolls' are being used to pay exorbitant salaries at the Port Authority of NY/NJ and to rebuild the World Trade Center (which the PA owns)...
Why does a bridge and tunnel agency even own real estate?

Government can do anything the private sector can at ten times the cost. This is why I have no faith in the AHCA (Obamacare). This is why Social Security is going broke. This is why Off Track Betting went out of business in NY (imagine a bookie losing money?)

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Now the NSA will be able to track our "road mile tollmeter" and create databases of everywhere we've been.

Absolutely not! It has NOTHING to do with WHERE you have been! It's sad that the paranoid always have to turn these into discussions about that...

History shows the government can not be trusted. I have a friend whose grandmother spent 4 years imprisoned in a concentration camp. Her crime? She was a natural-born American but her mother was born in Japan, so the government rounded her up & took away her freedom.

And yes the "mile log" trackers would show that (for example) I drove through a tollbooth in Baltimore, then a toll booth on the Delaware bridge, then several on PA turnpike, and another in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and so on. Not hard to figure out where I'm headed & apprehend me.

And then I too would be in a concentration camp, like my friend's grandmother. History repeats. (And even if it doesn't, given how many videos on youtube show cops beating citizens (or outright killing them) why would I want to subject myself to such a danger?)

I had an instance on a Texas interstate where the guards asked "Are you a US citizen?" and I said yes. They then demanded to search my trunk, and I asked if they have a warrant. They said "no" so I said that's your answer. They forced me to stand for over an hour in the hot sun before finally letting me go. I got a nice sunburn from the encounter with these tyrants.

"No warrant; no search." - ACLU


You're lucky they didn't beat you to a pulp and plant drugs in the car.

 

[Jarlaxle]

The Mass Pike tolls were supposed to come down when the construction bonds from building it were paid off. The tolls just went up.

The bonds were paid off in 1983.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Misappropriation is how politicians work.


This is very fundamental. There is a great deal of history that proves taxes are not always spent the way they are 'sold' to us.

This is not simply paranoid, it is a proven fact. If the Govt worked in a sensible fashion most of us would not disapprove of some additional taxation. But given the documented history of complete malfeasance giving the drug addict more money may not be a smart decision...

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

This is not simply paranoid, it is a proven fact. If the Govt worked in a sensible fashion most of us would not disapprove of some additional taxation. But given the documented history of complete malfeasance giving the drug addict more money may not be a smart decision...


If... thought exercise... the devil was sucking more money out of the economy, the gas tax isn't the worst way to do it. It gets pretty much everyone, even drug dealers, pimps and prostitutes who don't file 1040's...

And once you pay off the roads, there's a standing army keeping peace in the Middle East, so the oil flows. That's kind of a stretch of their reason for existence.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
2 c/liter sounds cheap. We pay about Americans pay 15-20c/liter.

38c fuel excise
2c Bicentennial levy to fix major roads by 1988.
3 c 3x3 tax intorduced in 1989

10% Goods and Services Tax over the top of those (typically 15-16c/L, 4.3c of which is the tax over the top of the other taxes.

Make it an even 58-60C TAX.