Rethinking the synthetic/VI improver issue

[G-MAN]

Well, I just got off the phone with someone at the Mobil tech number. He didn't sound like the most knowledgable person I've ever talked with, but he said flat out that NONE of the Mobil 1 SuperSyn grades use VI improvers.

I searched the Mobil 1 site in vain for an e-mail address to contact them for tech questions, since I'd like to follow up on this. Some of you have mentioned e-mailing Mobil and getting responses, so can you post that e-mail address or send me a PM with it?

 

[Patman]

I'm pretty sure that even Redline uses VI improvers. Especially for it's 5w30 and 5w40. It's possible the 10w30 has none in it though.

If someone knows for sure (Redline reps that are lurking perhaps??)

that would be great.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
I'm pretty sure that even Redline uses VI improvers. Especially for it's 5w30 and 5w40. It's possible the 10w30 has none in it though.

If someone knows for sure (Redline reps that are lurking perhaps??)

that would be great.

---

I don't know, Patman. The wording on their site seems to indicate they don't need them. Even their race oils, which are sold as single weight oils, have sufficiently high VIs that they meet the SAE requirements of a multi-weight. For example, the RL 40wt racing oil could be marketed as as a 15w40. And look at Amsoil's 30wt. It has a VI of 124 and probably works out like a 20w30 (if there was such a thing).

(I wish MoleKule would give his input on this thread.

)

 

[metroplex]

dont they simply make the basestock for PAO synthetics in whatever grade - like 0W-30 M1 would be a 30weight base stock with pour point depressants added to get the 0W cold performance?

 

[Jay]

...and I just got off the phone with a Mobil 1 tech rep who told me that all M1''s 30-weight PCMO's use VII's.

He wouldn't tell me which one's use the least amount though. He just said they all use very small amounts.

When I asked him why my car burned M1 0w-30 at 3 times the rate of 5w-20 he told me because I used a viscosity not recommended by the car manufacturer.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by metroplex:
dont they simply make the basestock for PAO synthetics in whatever grade - like 0W-30 M1 would be a 30weight base stock with pour point depressants added to get the 0W cold performance?

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No, you've got it backwards. The basestock is usually a relatively light weight oil, and if the VI of the basestock is not sufficiently high, VI improver is added to increase its high temp viscosity. If the natural VI of the basestock (or basestock blend) is high enough to cover the spread (say 10w30), then no VI improver is needed.

 

[MolaKule]

With the proper (viscosity) mix of PAO and ester base stocks, you may not need any VII's.

Mobil is the only company that can produce PAO basestocks up to 100 cSt and higher (at 100 C). So they have the ability to mix-and-match to arrive at any viscosity they need without VII's.

Redline uses a large amount of PE polyol esters that have a large inherent VI.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
With the proper (viscosity) mix of PAO and ester base stocks, you may not need any VII's.

Mobil is the only company that can produce PAO basestocks up to 100 cSt and higher (at 100 C). So they have the ability to mix-and-match to arrive at any viscosity they need without VII's.

Redline uses a large amount of PE polyol esters that have a large inherent VI.

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MolaKule,

What are your comments on my reasoning that the VI of the finished oil could indicate how much VI improver has been used? And specifically, the LOWER the VI number of the finished oil indicating LESS (or no) VI improver. Example:

Amsoil 10w30 = VI of 167
Mobil 1 10w30 = VI of 145
Red Line 10w30 = VI of 137
Red Line 30wt = VI of 136
Amsoil 30w5 = VI of 124

Obviously, the Amsoil 30wt and RL 30wt don't have any VI improver, but look at their VIs. Then look at the RL 10w30. It appears that the oils with no VI improver have lower VIs. Therefore, would it be safe to assume that of the oils listed above, the Amsoil 10w30 has the most VI improver, the Mobil 1 a less (or possibly none), with the RL 10w30, 30wt, and Amsoil 30wt having none?

Finally, in the absence of any factual information from Mobil, what is your best educated guess as to which grade of Mobil 1 would have the least (or no) VI improver?

 

[MolaKule]

I woould place more emphasis on the Shear Stability than the VI in determining how much VII's would be contained in full synths.

 

[G-MAN]

Here's the e-mail response I just got from ExxonMobil regarding VI improvers in Mobil 1:

Dear Mr. _______:

Thanks for your request. The composition of the Mobil 1 products is considered proprietary information. Viscosity index improvers are present in the products, the quantity varying with the SAE viscosity grade.

MJRoe

 

[MolaKule]

Here's the problem:

Some of the VII's in full synths may in reality be advanced esters, those same esters that are part of the High VI full synth PAO/ester mix.

What you have to specifically ask is: Over and above your high VI base oils, do you add any external VII's such as PMA's, etc.

(PMA being polymethyl acrylate, a common VII additive).

[ February 04, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
Here's the problem:

Some of the VII's in full synths may in reality be advanced esters, those same esters that are part of the High VI full synth PAO/ester mix.

What you have to specifically ask is: Over and above your high VI base oils, do you add any external VII's such as PMA's, etc.

(PMA being polymethyl acrylate, a common VII additive).

---

MK,

I honestly don't think ExxonMobil would answer that question. They are not very forthcoming when it comes to answers to technical questions, unlike Shell. I've found with Shell that the more you seem to know about their product, the more willing they are to talk about it in technical detail.

Short of someone having an "insider" in ExxonMobil's base oil division to ask, I doubt if we'll ever have definitive answers to the question of how much VI improver (or what type) is used in Mobil 1.

 

[dragboat]

Here is a link to a UOA of the Mobil 0/40,within that post is another link to a UOA of the 5/30 Mobil Supersyn ran in the same car. The 0/40 sheared while the 5/30 stayed in grade.

I saw a post where someone thought this shearing then thickening back up was in design for the 0/40 oil to meet a certain long interval Euro spec. I am not so sure about that IMO.
I beleive the 0/40 meets that spec only because of the HTHS numbers it puts down.
I think analysis might tell us more than Mobil will about the oils they offer in terms of VII's possibly shearing and or if they are added.JMO

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000315

 

[userfriendly]

What if this is as good as it gets? What if we look at the viscosity index of an oil as its resistance to thickening when chilled and not so much its resistance to thinning when heated? That assumption would result in high viscosity index engine oils being used for applications where cold flow and cranking performance is important. It appears to me that flash point goes down when VI is increased and visa versa. The VI/flashpoint theory has always worked for me. If I want winter performance I buy a high VI oil. In the summer I use a high flashpoint, but lower VI oil.
Hey Patman.... how did you enjoy that trainload of chlorine we de-railed in your backyard a few years ago? lol

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by userfriendly:
Hey Patman.... how did you enjoy that trainload of chlorine we de-railed in your backyard a few years ago? lol

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Hehe, that sure brings back memories! We lived on the very edge of Mississauga (and still do) so we didn't get evacuated, although just for safety we did spend one night out of town. I was just a little kid when that train derailed. 250,000 people were evacuated during that accident, the world's largest evacuation ever at the time, and possibly still to this day.

[ June 06, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[MikeW]

FWIW, I emailed Redline and asked about their 5w40. They stated directly that it has no VII.