Renewable energy isn't that expensive

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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When I went on a tour of the coal generator they told me the gird operators controlled the coal feed on the boilers. Seeing as most renewables don't require a long buildup to get up to power I don't see how turning them on and off would be bad. Rather seems like it is efficient grid management.



Well, one of our nukes (Bruce, which is the largest functioning nuclear facility in the world BTW with 8x CANDU's) actually dumps steam to the atmosphere instead of spinning a turbine with it because it is cheaper to dump that steam than it is to halt the wind turbines because of the rates at which each are compensated. There is something seriously wrong with that scenario. Bruce makes 7,276MW of power BTW, more than enough to run many European countries, probably a couple of them simultaneously.
So you blame the turbine? Sounds like some sort of structural problem with how your electricity is produced, purchased and delivered. In the US the nukes run at about 90% capacity. Of course blowing tritium laden steam out into the air is not a good idea either.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When I went on a tour of the coal generator they told me the gird operators controlled the coal feed on the boilers. Seeing as most renewables don't require a long buildup to get up to power I don't see how turning them on and off would be bad. Rather seems like it is efficient grid management.


OK, you buy a piece of "not that expensive" renewable energy plant (title of the thread), which has a capacity factor of 20%, then turn it off.

Yeah, REALLY inexpensive and efficient.

BTW, I've got a pretty good idea how coal works, and your operator tour guide gave you the most simplistic, dumbed down description.
So is that not how the boilers are controlled? Probably due to the way the power is distributed here. With the generators, distributors and retail sellers all being separate.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When I went on a tour of the coal generator they told me the gird operators controlled the coal feed on the boilers. Seeing as most renewables don't require a long buildup to get up to power I don't see how turning them on and off would be bad. Rather seems like it is efficient grid management.



Well, one of our nukes (Bruce, which is the largest functioning nuclear facility in the world BTW with 8x CANDU's) actually dumps steam to the atmosphere instead of spinning a turbine with it because it is cheaper to dump that steam than it is to halt the wind turbines because of the rates at which each are compensated. There is something seriously wrong with that scenario. Bruce makes 7,276MW of power BTW, more than enough to run many European countries, probably a couple of them simultaneously.
So you blame the turbine? Sounds like some sort of structural problem with how your electricity is produced, purchased and delivered. In the US the nukes run at about 90% capacity. Of course blowing tritium laden steam out into the air is not a good idea either.


No, I blame the agenda that resulted in the massive excess capacity we have and the contracts made with the wind and solar farm generators. I made that rather abundantly clear earlier in the thread. These contracts and installations were not made due to demand but rather the image of green energy. Nothing says "green" quite like a field of wind turbines or solar panels. We didn't need the capacity then, and we don't need it now. Demand has been on the decline. But we continue to install these bloody things and subsidize the living [censored] out of them while the rate payers get screwed. That's my issue with it.

Our nukes are the most efficient in the world and the cheapest to operate. We've been over that before too. And the steam dumping has no effect on tritium emissions, which is generated in tiny quantities in the heavy water cooling circuit and the moderator. Total emissions that make it out of the plants are ~1% of the national limit. Entirely insignificant.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Of course blowing tritium laden steam out into the air is not a good idea either.


what's your source for that statement ?

Turbine bypass bypasses steam around the turbine and straight to the condenser...the energy goes to atmosphere, without extraction of energy by the turbine. The steam is closed circuit.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Of course blowing tritium laden steam out into the air is not a good idea either.


what's your source for that statement ?

Turbine bypass bypasses steam around the turbine and straight to the condenser...the energy goes to atmosphere, without extraction of energy by the turbine. The steam is closed circuit.


Tritium and CANDU Power Production Power That's a powerpoint file
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Of course blowing tritium laden steam out into the air is not a good idea either.


what's your source for that statement ?

Turbine bypass bypasses steam around the turbine and straight to the condenser...the energy goes to atmosphere, without extraction of energy by the turbine. The steam is closed circuit.


Tritium and CANDU Power Production Power That's a powerpoint file


And that presentation shows that ~40% of the tritium that escapes is due to heavy water leakage. Furthermore, most of the tritium is captured, it is only a small percentage (~1%) that makes it out of the facility, which in turn accounts for only ~1% of the limit for external emissions, which is, as I noted, insignificant.

Remember, this water (the heavy water) is not the water that is turned into steam to spin the turbine, that is light water, which is an entirely separate circuit.
 
Thanks for providing a study that says the same thing : The argument of these pieces in the sky developers is that the scrap value will cover all salvage costs. Yet when reviewed, the estimates ignore all hauling, processing, etc, required to get the estimated salvage price, which usually is at the highest price ever seen in a market, if not higher. Not to mention earthworks, etc, at costs it can't even be done for today, let alone years in the future.

In the end, the bond ensures in a worst case things should net to zero. A far cry from more than paying for itself.
 
How does citing Beech Ridge help you to make any point you've been trying to make ?

Beech Ridge - a supposed "green" project - was fought tooth-and-nail by a local group, Mountain Communities for Responsible Energy (which sounds even greener) specifically because they didn't like the way it looked, i.e., "degraded their 'viewshed'" which is apparently a newly-defined resource.

The study you cited was an attempt by MCRE to attack the project from a different angle, to force them to post huge bonds because of anticipated huge decommissioning costs of that "high value scrap" you were talking about.

They also enlisted an environmental extremist super green group who were dead-set against Beech Ridge because they were afraid the turbines might kill bats.
It dragged through the courts for years and is a huge mess. I believe what's left of it is only permitted to operate when the bats are asleep.

It's hilarious to see the people that "renewable energy" claims to represent turn on it like that
laugh.gif



Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Last month, EVA was hired by the Mountain Communities for Responsible Energy to evaluate a Decommissioning Cost Report prepared for the Beech Ridge Energy Project – a 124-turbine project proposed for Greenbrier County, West Virginia. The project wind developer (Invergy) had argued that the scrap value of the wind turbines would far exceed the cost to decommission the wind project and that therefore they should be responsible for bonding $2,500/turbine that would slowly escalate to $25,000/turbine by year 16.

EVA completed an independent estimate of the salvage value of the Beech Ridge Wind turbines. The applicant’s consultant estimated that its salvage value credit would reach $12.64 million ($101,900/turbine) in their decommissioning fund study based upon application of general scrap factors and prices. This scrap value credit would more than offset their estimated demo costs ($8.68 million: $70,000/turbine).

EVA contacted the major regional scrap yards directly and got current scrap prices for steel, copper and transport. From these data, EVA developed a Beech Ridge project–specific salvage credit estimate of only $2.63 million, i.e., $10.01 million less than the original applicant study. We uncovered several major flaws in the applicant study methodology and pricing. They not only used old scrap prices but failed to take into account that they would have to transport the scrap to a yard. In addition, to obtain the posted scrap price, they would need to break down the tower into 3-4 ft long pieces or else the quoted price would be significantly less. In addition, the copper materials must also have their insulation stripped and/or copper pieces separated to obtain their posted copper price. If not, their scrap value would be far less than the common posted price. Given the large drop in scrap prices this year (>40%), scrap value can no longer cover decommissioning costs.

EVA also compared the estimated demolition costs to another decommissioning report for another wind project developer that had contained detailed cost breakdowns. The other study estimated demo costs of $97K/turbine vs. $70K/turbine by Beech Ridge. The bottom line is that using the demolition costs from the other wind turbine project decommissioning study would translate to a Beech Ridge demo cost of $12.03 million, i.e., $3.35 million more the applicant’s $8.68 million estimate. (Note: In another very recent project I have just reviewed, the decommissioning costs were again severely underestimated by more than 50% by not taking into account recent crane rental rates, extremely low earth moving costs, and assuming high productivity rates (6 turbines/wk).)

The bottom line is that even if the permitting agency allows the salvage credit, the total net cost of decommissioning this project today would be $10.4 million ($83,900/turbine). Our analysis quantified the large scrap price and demo cost escalation risk being assumed by the local community. To protect the community, the permitting agency should require a bond of a minimum $100/K per turbine ($12.4 million) to capture demolition cost escalation risk. If the wind developer can convince the bonding company of the high salvage value, then they should be able to negotiate a lower rate for the bond. If they were right, there would be very little price difference for a larger $12+ million bond. Shift the risk to the bonding company. Let the developer and bonding company assume the price risk – not the community.
 
Don't know what the big deal is about scrap value. Just what is the scrap value if anything at the end of it's life? It's not the reason they build something.

What's the scrap value of an old coal generator with a million ton ash pond? In the US we have to force the companies to clean it up through the courts or the taxpayer pays to clean it up. Never mind a nuke plant.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Don't know what the big deal is about scrap value. Just what is the scrap value if anything at the end of it's life? It's not the reason they build something.

What's the scrap value of an old coal generator with a million ton ash pond? In the US we have to force the companies to clean it up through the courts or the taxpayer pays to clean it up. Never mind a nuke plant.


1,000MW coal plant at end of life will have a few locations of a small number of acres that are affected...and YES they are worth a fortune for scrap. Thousands of tonnes of steel, copper, and more copper located in a concentrated few acres. High value to concrete ration very high.

Versus 1,000 to 2,000 wind turbine installations scattered over hundreds and hundreds of acres, each one requiring a dedicated deconstruction plan, mobilisation of cranes and equipment out to remote locations.

As to why the scrap value is important, or even the ability to recycle...here's where YOU brought it into the discussion.

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Many current renewable resources are nearing their half life. Replacements will be twice as efficient. To be making tomorrows decisions based on current products is foolish. What other industry would do that?


So the wind assets have been placed in the most favourable position, and their more efficient replacements should logivally go there, not secondary sites, shouldn't they ?

Or are you advocating walking away from the thousands of acres of wind monuments, and putting the new ones up on greenfields sites ?

When we drove around Ca in 2014, it didn't look like many old small ones were being replaced.

Lifecycle cost is lifecycle cost, including dragging cranes through difficult terrain to harvest concrete.
 
So what about the ash from coal plants laying around the US? And I see no mention of the nukes as far as cleanup cost.

Why would they not reuse the current wind tower base when the end is there for the current turbines?
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what about the ash from coal plants laying around the US? And I see no mention of the nukes as far as cleanup cost.


I keep telling you that they will be mining those deposits over the next 20 years...do you not pay attention ?

You keep bringing up the rehab costs of thermals, bit keep wanting us to ignore renewables...and the acreage that they are spread across ... WHY ?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Why would they not reuse the current wind tower base when the end is there for the current turbines?


You claim to be in the industry, then this ?

The new towers are bigger, and of different design...clearly...

When replacing a house/shed/garage, do you dig new foundations, or make the new building based on the limitations of the existing foundations.

Even a brownfields thermal still razes the structure before rebuilding it with the new technology.

Clutching at straws now SHOZ, and demonstrating the limitations of your grasp of technical complexity...but in a worls where used sump oil and asphalt are interchangeable, I'm not surprised.
 
Nukes (generally) don't get torn down/"cleaned up". They are usually refurbished/refreshed to carry on. This is largely in part due to the onsite storage facilities that are used for spent fuel since it isn't reprocessed outside of Europe. This is not something that can be readily cleaned-up. Relocating it yields what? The same issue elsewhere. Reprocessing the fuel changes that ballgame somewhat but you still need storage facilities for the final product, even if it is mostly benign.

Nukes are also a massive investment, unlike a wind turbine. So keeping them going/refurbishing them, not only respective to the logistics of dealing with storage and the site itself but relative to the replacement cost means that the ability to just walk away from it does not exist in the same capacity as it does for the renewables when their life expectancy is met. Shuttering a nuke carries with it continuous costs associated with dealing with spent fuel, contaminated material and the like, so simply refreshing that site and allowing it to continue to generate is not only far less expensive, but prevents one from having to deal with those issues.

It is like what you do with a hydro electric dam. You refresh it. because the issues and downstream repercussions created by demolishing the dam when it has been there for 50-100 years far outweigh the cost of just fixing it and putting in new turbines.

The legacy of each mode of generation has to be looked at and evaluated individually. They each carry with them their own suite of caveats and potential ramifications which make some less expensive to simply rip up/demolish and others going the refurbishment route or some variation of that.
 
There is a nuke north of me that is decommissioned, Zion. And Excelon is shutting down two others in my state; Clinton and two at Quad Cities.

Wind is profitable in the US. They sell into a $0.03 per kwh wholesale market here into the Midwest. They get a $0.023 per kwh tax credit. Natural Gas is what drives the price down, not solar or wind.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Reusing foundations is definitely is not unheard of around here. Why the attitude Shannownow?


Because you aren't arguing cogently, just throwing out stuff and "what ifs", as though they are facts and concepts.

You ask why they don't re-use the footings, when clearly...and by simple observation...

wind_turbine_size.jpg


they can't but you use it as a defence.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
There is a nuke north of me that is decommissioned, Zion. And Excelon is shutting down two others in my state; Clinton and two at Quad Cities.

Wind is profitable in the US. They sell into a $0.03 per kwh wholesale market here into the Midwest. They get a $0.023 per kwh tax credit. Natural Gas is what drives the price down, not solar or wind.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5164675e-1e7e-11e6-b286-cddde55ca122.html
http://catallaxyfiles.com/2016/06/08/black-is-white-wind-generators-drive-down-electricity-prices/
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2015/08/10/study-finds-that-the-price-of-wind-energy-in-the-united-states-is-at-an-all-time-low-averaging-under-2-5%C2%A2kwh/
https://knowledgeproblem.com/2013/11/03/...st-estimates-6/
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
There is a nuke north of me that is decommissioned, Zion. And Excelon is shutting down two others in my state; Clinton and two at Quad Cities.


Decommissioned makes my point. You can't just shutter one and tear it down, which is usually why they aren't. There will be ongoing expenses associated with those sites until the US decides they want to get into the business of fuel reprocessing. We have a site that will be slowly shuttered, as it was our first big plant and it was deemed non-viable for a refurb. However it is almost next door to Darlington, which is getting a full refresh. It (Pickering) still has 6 of 8 reactors functional but as she is wound down its proximity to Darlington will be crucial in dealing with those issues. Darlington was supposed to get 4x ACR1000's added to its site, and that may go through once Pickering is completely shuttered. Having Darlington and its storage facility (as well as the storage facility at Bruce) means that getting rid of contaminated material and fuel is relatively easy and that the site will actually be able to be cleaned up. This is far more difficult for a location that lacks those advantages.

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Wind is profitable in the US. They sell into a $0.03 per kwh wholesale market here into the Midwest. They get a $0.023 per kwh tax credit. Natural Gas is what drives the price down, not solar or wind.


Solar is profitable too if you don't factor in the installation costs. There isn't any real ongoing costs associated with these operations, it is the initial construction relative to the revenue generated during the life of the unit. A typical 2.5MW wind turbine costs around 3 million dollars. Factor in the land procurement and construction and linking costs and then figure out how many MWh that unit has to make within 15 years to pay for itself. Wind has a significant advantage over solar here due to a generally higher rate of annual GWh generation per MW of installed capacity than solar.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Reusing foundations is definitely is not unheard of around here. Why the attitude Shannownow?


Because you aren't arguing cogently, just throwing out stuff and "what ifs", as though they are facts and concepts.

You ask why they don't re-use the footings, when clearly...and by simple observation...

wind_turbine_size.jpg


they can't but you use it as a defence.
Got any new info. 8 year old is kind of out of daet. The ones going in now around me are 1.5 MW and 1.75MW. Both with 90 m hub heights.
 
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